Comments ~ 2008: April (Part 2 - 17th April onwards)

Lots to enjoy ahead of Stavanger - from Audrey Hepburn to the lack of change....

Better the devil you know...

I read with interest your editorial this month, especially the section concerning the Fourth Section where I am currently resident as a bander.

Whilst I am all in favour of musical liberation and find, at times, some of the rules of brass band competition to be a little petty I can't see the sense in removing those rules for one section in a system that has movement between gradings.

The problem is that if we allow Fourth Section bands to develop ensembles that do not comply with regulations higher up the movement how are these bands supposed to function if they are promoted?

Surely it is going to make improving and maintaining the standard of a band even more difficult if they suddenly have to create a new ensemble based on regulations that they did not have to adhere to previously?

I think it will only isolate many in the Fourth Section who do not choose to voluntarily stick to higher section ensemble rules whilst developing their band.

We could end up with the strange situation were we have better, but non-standard, ensembles in the Fourth Section than the Third Section who simply yo-yo because they can't get the players in to compete as a standard formation brass band in the Third Section.

Chris Satterley

Not enough butter to spread around

I have read with great interest the debate on "the Nationals" and the health of the banding nation.

As I have said before - does anyone agree, that there isn’t enough butter to go on the bread?

There is a mad scramble come ‘Nationals’ time, in every area in this land. I agree, 4BR, who's going to bite this bullet? Not the B.F.B.B. - they don't have the mandate – and many bands don't belong to their organization! So they can't speak for many of us!

Why can't the regional committees speak for us? Why can't bands effectively represent themselves at regional meetings? I would say that if a band can't represent itself at a regional meeting, then it should be sacked from the association, because it can't be bothered sending a representative. 

I hear some of you disagreeing, but what is the point of being in any association where you are not prepared to put a bit into to further the aims of the organization???

We are talking about the future of brass bands here. Let's redraw the lines, from the top down and get things in proportion.

Let's look at the regional boundaries - they don't have to be exactly the same in all of the sections do they? We can have strength in depth! But seriously, this isn’t going to happen, is it? We have no sense of unity - it is dog eat dog out there, and many bands are just concerned with their own survival!

I don't really know what goes on at committee and regional level, so , I think I speak for many bandspersons when I say, “It would be nice to know”- does anyone ever publish anything?

John Ludden

Reason for Yorkshire decline?

I feel that I must comment on the observations of Pete Denton's article on the decline of bands in the Yorkshire Area Contest.

Some years ago because the North of England Area was in decline, all bands in North Yorkshire above Leeds I believe were made to attend the Northern Area. (I am aware 2 or 3 bands fought this & stayed in Yorkshire). Then a few years later there was a further decline in the North and bands to the East of the county were made to travel north.

Now this would appear to benefit the championship bands as competition in the north is a little easier, but what about the lower section bands who no longer attend the area contest's because they cannot afford to travel to Darlington or wherever. (I see a band from Lincolnshire had to attend the Northern Area)

One wonders if some of these bands would come back into the fold, if they were allowed to get in their cars to travel to St Georges Hall instead of costly coach prices to the north.

Ted Griffiths

Fly Me to the Moon

I read with interest your article on the recent CD by Brett Baker, Paul Woodward and friends. 

I must admit to chuckling on your comments of the use of the Alto and Contrabass trombones in the Massed Choir performance of the Organ Symphony. 

There were to my knowledge (and looking at the photo I have) 17 of us recording on the day.  Amongst the players I can name were as follows; Gareth Westwood, Rebecca Stead, Richard Walker, Leigh Lord, Gary Reed, Adrian Hirst, Simon Minshall...  Apologies to the players I couldn’t recognise from the photo.  All conducted by Brett Baker. 
 
As for the use of the Alto, all the high wire work was done by a combination of Gareth Westwood, Richard Brown, Kevin Holdgate and myself (all on large bores.)  We either have very thin sounds, or cast iron embouchures.  As for the use of contrabasses, all 4 bass trombonists, Kevin Wilson, Gareth Sykes, Simon Minshall and Adrian Hirst had a go on their normal Bass Trombonists at parping away in the low register, and clearly it all worked.
 
I was a great experience to combine, in my humble opinion some of the best brass band trombonists in the country to create something very special.  Thank you Brett for arranging it.
 
Just a last note about the arranger of the piece, John Challis. 

John was a native of the West Midlands, and studied at the RNCM.  A brass bander who player with Leyland, he graduated and went to work in Spain with some of their top orchestras.  On his return to England he quickly established himself as a fine freelancer due to his talent and extremely amiable approach.  He kept himself associated with brass bands through an association with Bilton Silver in Rugby. 

I was privileged to have played in sections with John periodically and was forever amazed at how easy he made trombone playing look.  Sadly John died in 2003 due to cancer.  He was 42.  The music, brass band and trombone world are much colder places for this dreadful loss. 
 
Rich Walker

Bemused Brass in Concert review

I was bemused to read your review of the 2007 BICC after watching the DVD many times.

I thought it continued the trend of less stodgy 1950s repertoire and the very welcome humorous items despite Frank Renton's condemnation in the "bonus" interview.

I despair for the future of brass bands in the appreciation of the public who look for entertainment and amusement rather than jazz appreciation and discordant syncopation no matter how virtuostic the performance which has become so prevalent in later years. Surely this is Brighouse's secret to their success.
 
I agree there is no need to get silly as did YBS, but when you listen closely to the audience applause there is a clear message as to public appreciation.
 
Glyn Williams deserved recognition for his James Morrison type versatility but really - best euphonium?
 
It was good to see Desford again and I thought their "clock" piece was delightful. I have a clandestine video recording of all the episodes of the Best of Brass competition in 1985 when Desford were clear winners but to play the same music suggests they might be clinging to the good old glory days.

I hope they continue to improve and appear at BICC in the future but please don't play "Midnight Sleigh Ride".
 
Brass Band musicians seem on the whole to be somewhat conservative and maybe stodgy and it is the breath of change from MDs like Richard Evans that bring hope for the future. Clearly we will not see Black Dyke at the BICC anytime (Doyens that they are) soon and that may be appropriate.
 
If invitations are required for overseas bands to compete at BICC I hope the choosers will be more circumspect and less eager to invite bands who think the public want to hear dixie and the big band type repertoire. Surely if you to listen to the Big Band sound get a big band DVD or are there none to be had. I wonder why?
 
Please tell me when this obsession with Eb Bass solos is going to end although Magnus Brandseth may have hastened it.

What started with the European gala concerts has the appearance of jousting egos rather than public appreciation. The are better sounds to listen to than a Eb Bass regardless of the virtuosity. Full marks for the beautiful clarity of the slow melodies.
 
Finally, were the snapshots of the adjudicators taken independently of the soundtrack?

If not then the secret is out. Judges get bored or have they simply predetermined the result. There is no way that flicking over the pages of the score convinces anyone that the flicker has not switched off.
 
 
Gordon Brock
New Zealand

Mystery cornet
 
For info about your Cornet, which appears to be dated at approx 1912, the following link may be useful.
 
http://homepages.ed.ac.uk/ezhm01/bwr.html

 
Broughton Woolford
Australia

I travelled over from France after hearing Bolton play in Paris last summer.
 
I disagree with the comment about ‘Riverdance’. It certainly was an unusual choice by the Bolton band, but totally fitting with what the adjudicators said when they mentioned how important it was that the bands feel enthusiastic about the music played.

It did show the strengths of Bolton and several people amongst the public were surprised Bolton only came fourth.
 
I can only say how disappointed I am with the comment, although I do agree with the rest.
 
Kate Bastien 

The Numbers Game...

Are things really as bleak as your article "The State of the Nation" suggests?

I work in business development and we look at the figures for people who access our services regularly.  People who work with data in this way will tell you that there are two type of variation - common cause variation (i.e. within normal fluctuation levels) and special cause variation (i.e. a change from the established norm).

I have applied these techniques to the figures in your charts and this is what I see:

Yorkshire - 24% decline
1985 – 1990: Average entry 74 bands
1991 – 1999: Average entry drops to 69 bands
2000 – present:  Average entry drops again to 56 bands - 18 fewer than the 1985 - 1990 period

Scotland - 16% decline
1985 – 1990: Average entry 63 bands
1991 – present: Average entry drops to 53 bands

North of England - 13% decline
1985 – 1989: Average entry 50 bands
1990 – 2003: Average entry increases to 53 bands
2004 – present:  Average entry reduces to 44 bands - 6 fewer than the period 1985 - 1989

West of England - 2% decline
1985 – 1993: Average entry 75 bands
1994 – 2004: Average entry rises to 86 bands
2005 – present: Average entry drops to 74 bands - only 1 less than the 1985 - 1993 period

North West - no significant change
1985 – present: Average entry 72 bands for this entire period with no significant fluctuations in numbers

London and Southern Counties - no significant change
1985 – present: Average entry 83 bands for this entire period with no significant fluctuations in numbers

Wales - 9% increase
1985 – 1990: Average entry 44 bands
1991 – 1999: Average entry rises to 55 bands
2000 – present: Average entry drops to 48 bands - 4 more than the 1985 - 1990 period

Midlands - 21% increase
1985 – 1993: Average entry 68 bands
1994 – 2000: Average entry rises to 92 bands
2001 - present: Average entry drops to 82 bands - 14 more than the 1985 - 1993 period

Overall - 2% decline
1985 – 1993: Average entries per Region 66 bands
1994 – 2000: Average entries per Region increased to 70 bands
2001 – present: Average entries per Region reduced to 64 bands - only 2 fewer than the 1985 - 1993 period

These figures have been calculated using the established assumption that common cause variation occurs and that it's generally dangerous to assume that there is a new trend unless you have 6 consecutive data points moving in the same direction or 8 consecutive data points on the same side of the average line for the period.

Figures for 1983 and 1984 have been ignored for these Regional analyses as the Regional boundaries changed in 1985.

When looking at the special causes for these variations, I'd want to know whether these were things within my control (e.g. contest venue) or things I could influence (e.g. test pieces selected, music education policies (local and national), funding available to bands through sponsorship and grants, etc.).  For example, in Yorkshire I'd be looking to see what changed round about 1990/1991 and again round about
1999/2000.

I'd also want to compare the special causes in Regions and at times when entries have risen with the special causes for when they have declined.

Armed with this data, it should be possible to put together an action plan to strengthen the contesting side of the band movement – both locally and nationally.

It might seem that an average Regional entry drop of 2% in 23 years is nothing to worry about nationally but the decline in entries in Yorkshire, Scotland and the North of England are things that would cause me concerns in a business context. 

I'd also want to look at why just about every Region has had a significant drop in numbers between 2000 and 2004, even in the Regions where entries are greater now than in the 1980s.

Whilst I'd not make a doom laden warning of a "widespread decline" as described in the 4BarsRest article, I think there is cause for concern and need for someone to do further research. 

After all, these figures only relate to the annual Regional contests as part of the National Championships.  It would be interesting to compare them with other contests entries over the same period...

Pete Denton

These comments are my own and not those of any band or other organisation I may be associated with 

The numbers: A true reflection?

An interesting article on the number of bands, but as per other people’s comments – is this a true reflection of banding today?

Within my local region (West Midlands) there are several bands who regularly perform concerts, but choose not to compete. These have been thriving and their members and audiences enjoy what they do.
 
It make me wonder about how bands are measured as successful within today. The whole emphasis of the world rankings and now the money list is around contests, but yet outside of the banding fraternity, who cares about contests?
 
Take for example my current band (Langley). Over the past few years we have worked hard at extending our reach to new and more varied audiences. We now have an annual series of self promoted concerts, joint productions with local theatre groups and a full concert diary well into 2009. Our revenue has increased significantly due to this hard work and the band is now more financially secure than ever before. 

Does this make us a less successful band than one that competes in several contests, but does less than a handful of concerts a year? Our audience cares about being given an enjoyable and value for money concert and many don’t even know (or care) about the UK contesting scene.
 
I know of several local bands who are now compete only in the area, and perhaps one other contest. Indeed some are now seriously considering if they should go to the area contest in future at all. 

For a band to survive, they need income - if the choice is between attending a contest, where it is extremely unlikely that any prize monies would cover professional fees and other expenses, or performing at a concert with a full audience and sizable income, then what should they choose?
 
Gary Jones 

Redraw the map

I agree with Nick Garman re: the huge variations of competing bands in the different areas.

You only have to look at the full published results on 4BR to note the differences in say the L & SC 4th section (22 entries) to the Yorkshire 4th (10) - although, to be fair, the 1st section in these areas are very similar.

I am also fully aware that the bigger the section the more bands qualify - but one should take into account the human cost of all the extra 'hanging' about at a large antry contest.

Another anomaly is the physical size of each area - Yorkshire (duh by definition) - very small, L &SC, very big, that is from the South Coast right up to the East Coast with London in between.

The Midlands is also huge going from Northamptonshire right up to Dronfield and Chesterfield in the north.

I realise that there can never be a perfect solution, any changes could only reflect the current situation - after all the 1st section was introduced to cut the 2nd/Championship sections and, correct me if I am wrong, I think that East Anglia was separate at one point but was amalgamated when it became too small.

Perhaps one can assume that it is better to win a large contest than a small one - because you have fielded off more opponents!

Perhaps it IS time to redraw the 'area' map and abolish/amalgamate even some historic areas!

Julia Crask 

Odd things in mind...

I’ve only been involved with brass banding for about eight years, but there are a number of things that strike me as being ‘odd’ about the whole thing when it comes to competing for the ‘Nationals’, and other contests organised on similar lines.
 
First off, I’m not totally convinced that the ‘man’ (men /women!?) in the box are absolutely unaware of which band is playing, when. (i.e. in what order). 

Modern technology can easily, and silently, transmit the draw by mobile phone technology.  And whilst I am not saying, for one second, that adjudicators might be influenced or biased by popular opinion, or personal favour, I am sceptical that anonymity is as sacrosanct as many believe it to be.
 
In the recent qualifiers I was asked to attend the ‘draw’ on behalf of my band.  Present were the regional officials, a single representative from each competing band, and the adjudicator (and his wife).  At the point at which the draw was to be made, quite rightly, the adjudicator was asked to leave the room; but his wife stayed. Why?  

When the time came for the results to be announced, the MC, in his preamble to announcing the winning band made an ‘aside’ that the winning band had recently made a significant purchase from the sponsoring instrument supplier, York. Why?
 
I now come to the varying quality of ‘comments sheets’ provided by adjudicators.  It isn’t much for a band to expect that, having painstakingly practiced a test piece for week upon week in advance of the contest, they might receive at least some detailed and bespoke critique of their performance. 

This is normally the case but in case of the recent 2nd section (North) qualifiers the remarks received from the adjudicator ( unusually) amounted to little more than half a dozen lines of PRINT, vacuous  of constructive criticism, merely acknowledging that the band played the dots in the right order, but then damning the band for not being ‘inventive’; thus leaving the band no further forward in terms of knowing how to improve.
 
Now the last way that my remarks should be construed is in the spirit of ‘sour grapes’.  

My band has been at the top, in  the middle  and, all too often, has plumbed the depths of regional qualifiers.  Having read recent correspondence on 4barsrest, I share the concern that there is a trend for fewer bands to compete at regional / national level. 

There’s no easy answer, but ‘men in tents’ seems to me, in the 21st Century,  to be an antiquated  way of doing things. 

I’m not offering an alternative, but I would like to open a debate on the subject and I’m sure that there must be a way whereby peer judgement could be deployed to some degree.   Audience participation TV shows like ‘Dancing on Ice’, ‘Strictly Come Dancing’ and ‘Pop Idol’ remain popular because of their mass appeal and the involvement of ordinary people as ‘judges’. 

 I’m sure that the brass band world could emulate this to some extent, especially with the collaboration of a ‘fringe’ TV channel, and evolve a competitive forum which didn’t just rely on the ‘man in the box’ but also the critical ear of the extensive brass band following and rank and file bandsmen (bandswomen) who exist in their masses up and down the land and, indeed, are spread across the globe. 
 
4barsrestTV maybe?

David Cooper 

Last retort

I am writing in response to Gordon retort about my comments. What Gordon did not take into consideration or read properly was that the lack of continuity in Mr. Thompson’s remarks.

I am under no illusion that he probably is a fine man and good musician to boot. I also do not need to be told how to listen to a band and I am well aware of the adage “if you can’t take a joke don’t go contesting” also I would love to be an adjudicator I would try to be as consistent as possible so to sum up young Gordon

1.    I am well aware how to listen to bands amazingly I listen to them with my with eyes shut and thanks for the tip but have been doing this for about 40 years now

2.    I think the word seething was a bit strong I would use the phrase slightly annoyed.

3.    Always read first there was no slur on your friend Barry just the lack of continuity and it was strange that all local bands finished quite high up.
 
Please enjoy reading the comments
 
Janet Bennett    

4BR Reply:
That's all folks on this one... 

Sorry

With reference to Fiona Shawcross' post (memory problems). 

I sincerely apologise for the error of positions at the National Finals I quoted. It was 2006 and not 2007 when we were placed higher in the 2nd Section.

I knew as soon as I had hit the return button on my PC that I was in for some ridicule. Mind I was expecting it from 4Bars themselves, not Lockwood’s flugel horn player!

It's comforting to know that other bands personnel are as passionate about banding competitions as I am and don't like to see unfair or untrue threads on your website.

Once more please accept my apologies Fiona and I look forward to competing with you in the future (that’s if you havn't been promoted to the championship section)

Steve Perry 

Solbron and Arban help

Hello, my name is Amber and I am in possession of a cornet and Arban cornet method book that I was wanting to know more about.

Engraved on the bell of the cornet is: "Solbron" Class A, Compensating pistons, BOOSEY & CO. 295 Regent St London, 84433.

Also, which I found interesting, is that the valves are not lined up straight, but with the middle valve position slightly to the left of the other two.

I also was given an Arban cornet method, printed in 1907. It is in relatively good condition, though the woman that had passed it on to me had taped the spine of the book herself.

I'm not completely sure if I am contacting the right person here, but I am keen to find out more about these two items.

Amber Lauren

4BR Reply:
You may be able to find more about the cornet through a bit of investigative work on the internet, whilst you seem to be mixing up the copyright date (1907) rather than the printed date of your Arban.

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