Comments ~ 2007: October

Dog days, Dyke days and even a poor girlfriend kicking and screaming in the Albert Hall.

Dog days at 4BR and Reg Vardy

Great podcast lads - loved the dog making his point! 

Just one thing though - you still seem to be harsh on Reg Vardy? Why is this? They are a great band who have had some real bad luck in the past year at the major contests. They played well at Birmingham and again at London so perhaps they need a bit of encouragement from you rather than the veiled criticism. 

Peter Knowles
Luton

4BR Reply:
We think it's a bit more than bad luck in the past year or so Peter - just look at the results. Something is not clicking there at the moment is it now?

Right on the mark

May I say I know you have got it right with Black Dyke's 1959 performance. 

Why? Because I was the youngest member of that band at the time (15 years of age). I can remember many of the players crying at the end as the band had played so well including Sam Smith on Flugel and Geoffrey Whitham on Euphonium. We did play well in 1967 with an inspirational Geoffrey Brand conducting. 

At that time we made music come alive off the page, today most test pieces are written to test the dexterity of the players. I am looking forward to next years areas when we return to music that will show how many conductors can again make the music come off the page.  

John Clay 

Kicking and screaming 

My eye was caught by the item in your comments column from Alison Brown, regarding Dyke’s 1967 ‘Journey Into Freedom’ performance. I was there, as was my poor girlfriend who I had dragged kicking and screaming to the Albert Hall with me .
 
As is my luck, I arrived just in time to miss Dykes contest performance but I can say that the applause lasted the whole time it took to climb to the gallery from the entrance!  We then sat through all the remaining bands (no complaint from my long suffering girlfriend – so I married her) and were crestfallen to find that we had missed the winning band. A very popular decision if memory serves.
 
All was not lost though, as in those (good old?) days the winning band did a ‘lap of honour’, performing the test piece again to an appreciative audience. Leaning over the balcony before this happened I espied a motley crowd of bandsmen mounting the stage in what looked like very dowdy uniforms, and carrying plain unlaquered brass instruments. “What on earth is this?” I thought, eventually realising that this was the famous Black Dyke Mills Band, who I had never actually seen ‘in the flesh’ so to speak. 

To be honest, I was not impressed by what I saw.
 
But when they played! I can honestly say that, to my ears at least, this was an entirely different piece of music. The band and Geoffrey Brand had found something in the piece that the others appeared to have missed. Even my girlfriend was impressed! Certainly the right adjudicators decision on that day.
 
In those days Black Dyke had a very distinctive sound (and it was about ‘sound’, not ‘power’) and I could unfailingly pick them out in a radio broadcast before they were announced. They recorded ‘Journey Into Freedom’ shortly after the event and the sound of the band, together with Mr Brand’s interpretation, still sends a shiver down my spine – despite the slightly suspect cornet section entry to the final section…. Easily my favourite recording to this day. And there have been a few!
 
One thing though, in reply to Ms Brown’s comments. “..despite Frank Berry” is a very unkind comment to make about a long serving member of what was almost universally accepted as the finest band in the world at that time. It seems to me that when you can say the same, you’ll be qualified to deliver that kind of personal attack.
 
I no longer move in band circles, having hung up my EEb & Baton, after over 40 years. This is partly due to work commitments but mainly, if the truth were known, because the brass band world I grew up in (epitomised by the packed hall and atmosphere at the above event) has all but disappeared and been replaced by something I don’t really care for.
 
Your site though is doing a fine job of keeping me in touch and I wish you much success.
 
Roger Pearcey
Suffolk.

Cheap jibe

"1967, the Dyke, Journey into Freedom. The best in spite of Frank Berry." - Alison Brown
 
In reply to Alison Brown perhaps she could remind us how many times she played with the winning band at the Nationals and the Open? Perhaps she could check out how many times Frank Berry did, and realise what a player he was, he certainly doesn't deserve such a cheap jibe.
 
David Hirst 

What about Dyke in 1967?

I think poor old Frank Berry (is he still with us) is maligned.

I believe it was an old best mate of mine who came in a bar early (after the EEb Bass Solo ?)  in "Journey" all those years ago. I won't mention his name as it would be very embarrassing for him (You can probably suss it out for yourselves anyway).

He was mortified on the day. Perhaps you could alter it to "A.N.Other" ( Ha ! Ha !)

Ian Wilkinson
Leeds

Falling into place 

Just read the retrospectives on the Nationals lads and have to agree with just about everything you say.

Grimethorpe were a fair way ahead of the rest of the field with Fodens and Cory behind. I thought Black Dyke were a bit lucky to come fourth as they had too many mistakes and their tuning wasn’t good at times. Still, that’s contesting for you.

As for the rest – it all fell into place for me (I heard 19 bands), so well done the judges even if they didn’t say anything once again!

Peter Carr
Southend 

More or less?

Just a small point about the Nationals. You say it was another encouraging day for the championships, but from where I was sitting there were less people than 12 months ago, and less than two years ago. Is that really encouraging?

Kevin Day 

We wuz robbed!

Congratulations to all who took part in the national finals at the RAH especially those lucky enough to be in the prizes. The clapometer was working.
 
The only thing I would say however is, I think we were robbed!
 
John Storey
Fanfare Team
Coldstream Guards 

What about Dyke in 1967?

1967, the Dyke, Journey into Freedom. The best in spite of Frank Berry.

Alison Brown 

Has London been paved with gold?
 
Not sure who wrote this article, I can’t see a name anywhere, but it is mentioned as investigative journalism but refers to saddo anoraks at the top of the article.
 
Is this person suggesting that people who are interested in brass bands are sad and wear anoraks? I myself play cornet in a brass band but don’t consider myself sad and I don’t possess an anorak. This kind of journalism may well put young people off joining brass bands as we all know how impressionable young people can be. Is it suggesting that people who play musical instruments are sad?
 
Most people can can write an article  - but can most people play a musical instrument?
 
Indeed does the writer play an instrument I would be interested to know?
 
Anne Furness

4BR Reply:
We think you may have just missed the point of this one Anne. 

Did you get bored?

A great service! I stuck with your reviews all day and followed each band as they performed. I had an interest as my son was playing with Mount Charles. Not expected to do much and per form, finished last, though there were worse bands. 

My comment, however, is aimed at 4BR. I follow all your comments and reviews during the day but, once the results are through, nothing. No comments, no comparison with live reviews. Total switch off.  You're obviously bored by that time.

Hey, whoever you are you placed the top 3 in order and got 5 out of 6.  Brilliant! Please, though, finish the service. A comment on the concert and adjudicators' remarks would finish it off nicely!

Pam & Alan West

4BR Reply:
Thanks for the nice coments, but if we did all of that we wouldn't have had time to watch the rugby, have a few well earned pints and a bit of grub and the head for bed before midnight.  We'll keep on trying though! 

Standing room only?

I first attended the National Finals with my Dad from 1965,aged 10, an avid Black Dyke fan.They actually played number one that year. Probably the finest sound ever for the National Anthem to kick off the days Contest. I went to at least 20 consecutive RAH finals, but alas not for a number of years now due to Professional commitments as a trumpeter. 

I remember seeing year after year, Black Dyke take to the stage, whilst the steps to the Arena would fill with people listening, and not an empty seat to be seen anywhere, not even in the Gallery. I have spoken to my friend, Dave Nesbitt about this very subject. He described the vast array of faces in the hall, plus the deafening silence just before they played... what an electrifying, and scary, atmosphere! Philip McCann has told me precisely the same story as well.

I logged onto your site a few times today to keep track of how it was all going, and tonight saw the photo of the hall filling for band number 13. On close scrutiny, no one standing in the arena like the old days, no doubt another slash by Health and Safety, but what of all the empty seats in the Gallery? Were they unsold on the day? Was it the only time you could get to the bar?

I now live in the North East, and had to work today, so no chance of me attending. In the old days, seats were hard to come by, if you didn't know someone in the know, you could do no better than the Gallery, often trading these seats for better ones outside from 8.30 am on the day, but always able to sell your very last ticket... people were so desperate to get in, turning up without a ticket, just hoping to hear the world's best bands.

Has that all changed, and if so, why?

Richard Martin

The right man!

I read your regent hall concert review and nationals retrospective, and I thought you should know that I took over for Richard Walker in  September. The band are just a bit slow on updating their sites ;)

By the way, you guys are doing a great job on the site and everything!

Thomas Swatland 

The wrong man

Being a former member of that great band which is Leyland, imagine my delight when I read with some interest that I along with Leyland’s Principal Cornet Andy Lord and Principal Euphonium Brenden Wheeler, vied for supremacy in Peter Graham’s Cossack Fire Dance.
 
Sadly, I must report that I was not there.  At the time of the concert I was enjoying a nice Italian meal in South Kensington, along with musical accompaniment (the fire alarm kept going off in the kitchen).
 
The honour of playing in this fine band went to Thomas Swatland, my well deserving replacement at Leyland, himself a fine player and deserves the recognition more so than I.
 
For the record I sadly left Leyland in September of this year.  The 250 mile round trip journey finally took its toll.  I do miss it however, the Band that is, not the journey.
 
Whilst the result was not one of Leyland’s best, they are still a great Band in my eyes.  I wish them the best for the future.
 
Yours with much chuckling.
 
Richard “my annual mileage has dropped from 60,000 to 30,000” Walker
Bandless of Nottingham… 

Roadtest?

I guess a good many cornet folk will be eager to see your roadtest of the new Eclipse cornet. 

In these days of Iiternet sales of "photographs" of Instruments it is very difficult, and also expensive travel-wise, to get to try out anything, let alone a fair selection of horns. 

Would that test be upcoming?

You do a good job at 4BarsRest - a lot of people take a great interest in your opinions, and rely on you to be really honest and fair.

Michael O'Dwyer.

4BR Reply:
We have a number of instrument reviews coming up, so you never know. Keep your eyes peeled.

Where are we?

Hi I have a query regarding the world rankings. Do you keep tabs on rankings beyond the first 200? 

If so I was wondering if I could possibly find out where Middleton are currently ranked?

Louise Crane
Soprano
Middleton Band

4BR Reply:
180!

Initiate debate

I really don't think anybody wants to discuss the Open or National or touch the status quo. Roy Newsome and I have written lengthy letters in the BB on contests and the need for a debate. No response. 

Hence the framing of the letter suggesting that you initiate the debate. The letter from the secretary of Market Rasen highlights another issue. Some of these things desperately need to be looked at even if the end result is nothing can be done. What has happened to the meetings that Alan Hope is supposed to have with the 8 regional secretaries - I cannot recall any feedback on these for a long while.
 
Not that many years back the East Anglian Association would get an entry of between 20 and 30. It started to slide so to their credit they changed the format. This year 11 bands entered and 7 played. All the contests that I used to play in within a reasonable distance of Ipswich are all gone. The nearest are now Folkestone, Brighton and Leicester.
 
Tim Mutum  

Wrong point?

I think Kerry Bowden may have misunderstood the point I made about the 4barsrest comments on the 4th section.

Kerry, you are quite correct that I wasn't there to experience the event, and I really wished I had been there to enjoy the music...

I was hoping to get an idea of what was going on from the other side of the pond and I presume that this is one of the main reasons why 4barsrest put up the 'live' comments - to give people who cannot attend the contest an idea about each performance. I found the style of the four bars rest comments confusing and I think I know the piece pretty well, those who didn't know the piece at all would, I think, been even more confused. My comments were aimed at a request for a clearer, less russel-crowe style in the future.

I'm not worried about flippant comments about my band, I was more concerned with understanding how each of the bands performed through the day. And to top off my frustration about being a thousand miles of so away, the day before I had a mare trying to find out about the Wales game - as the bbc coverage hung in the 79th minute and it took me about an hour to find out that we'd lost .

I did hear many good things about your performance from various sources and I can understand your dissappointment.
 
By the way, what has all this go to do with people starving in the world? 

Huw Cole 

Non contesting?

To add to Mark Smith's comments on "Non contesting?": "How strange that more and more bands are advertising themselves as 'non-contesting'".  

I found it stranger still to see such bands contesting in the Youth/Non-Contesting section at the GBBA contest last Sunday. Well done to them for doing so and hopefully we'll see them contesting at the Regionals and other contests in the future. 

Neil Crowe
Lydney

Walkley not Walker

I would like to point out, that when Ian Wilkinson wrote:
 
Steve Walker wrote :- "It is a very long time since the National Press reported the results of the National Brass Band Championships  -  and opportunities to listen to or see brass bands on National Radio or TV are extremely rare these days."

He was wrong; Steve Walkley wrote it.
 
Steve Walker

ASBOland 

Manchester City Council have threatened two violinists that their instruments will be seized because of "noise nuisance". Apparently the council had a single complaint. Is this the end of home practice?

Like most people, I try to practice at times least likely to upset my neighbours. So far I've not had any complaints but can this last? At what point is a neighbour with a complaint about parking, dog fouling or the colour of Father Christmas' beard going to use a cornet player's practice as an excuse for an ASBO.

Chris Hardy
The Bostock Band

By special invitation?
 
Living in Holland I don't understand why Black Dyke take part of the British Nationals in London. They have not played at the English nationals. I like it that they are in London , for sure.  But was this a special invitation?
 
Alko Driest

4BR Reply:
No - They had to qualify like everyone else Alko. However, given the complexity of the way in which banding 'devolution' takes place in this country we can see why you may be a touch confused! 

Testing the boundaries

Could i suggest that a debate regarding the structure and numbers at the regional qualifiers be generated, with particular regard to the lower sections.

We at Market Rasen are in the wilds of North Lincolnshire, and now have to travel to Bedworth in Warwickshire if we wish to compete in 2008. The numbers this year was 24 bands playing, with a conclusion of the event at around 6pm, 7pm when the coach was able to leave the venue, arrival time back in Lincolnshire, 10pm. This from a deaprture time of 7am. Cost in transport £680.

We have made enquiries to compete in Yorkshire, some 20 miles nearer, and some 5 hours shorter in duration, with a shorter travelling time, and a decreased cost of £300.

The response, sorry, not allowed, we would love more bands to compete here in Yorkshire, yet when a band from our county capital York has to play in Darlington, then sadly i dont hold much hopr for your case.

The cost of transport is ever increasing, and legislation dictates the number of drivers required on any journey given the duration of the day, not the distance travelled.

Is it time for the organisations within our movement to interrogate, wroot and branch, the logistics of our bands reaching chosen venues within a reasonable time frame, and at a reasonable and appropriate cost.

Is there some vested interest somewhere with regards to the regional structures?  Why are the regions disproprtionate in size, venues, and numbers entered? Is it rocket science or are we just happy to accept the status quo as it is too much time and effort to think outside the box.

Our neighbours compete in Darlington, so could we if we had a Post Code 5 miles away, and compete in Yorkshire if we had one 12 miles away.

Is it me, or are we just accepting a disproprtionate cost at the lowest, yet arguably, the most important part of our movment.
 
Brenda Cherry
Sec Market Rasen (RPC) Band 

Non contesting?

How strange that more and more bands are advertising themselves as 'non-contesting'.  

I fully understand the point of view that 'life is stressful, why add to it?' but surely the competitive aspect of pitting yourselves against like-standard bands is what makes it worthwhile?  We tend to be an opt-out society and take refuge in our own little worlds, happy with work/home and a few creature comforts. 

However, when presented with a genuine opportunity to compete with others, and use the experience to improve the  standard of our chosen leisure activity, we cannot be bothered and prefer to use excuses like 'it's too political', 'contests are fixed' or 'I haven't got the time'. 

As I enter middle-age ( I am 50 ), I still relish the opportunity to show that I can compete with some very talented younger players at solo contests. However, when I do compete, I find myself alone in my age-group, as others have given up or prefer not to take the chance of losing!  

1) We have a duty to encourage the younger players, even if this does mean coming below them in the results, and 
2) It helps us older players reinforce our value in an ever-younger, more talented society and show that experience does count!

It is pleasing to see Pontins and Butlins filling their sections for two wonderful contests, but if bands increasingly become non-contesting, we will see such institutions becoming unviable and falling victim to our 'take it for granted' attitude to the Brass Band movement.

Mark Smith
Walsall

Total Abstainance

Greetings. I have been playing around with your very impressive contest results archive.
 
With respect to the result of the Spring Festival-Senior Trophy 1943,  you have the 2nd prize going to Pemberton Old.  It was, in fact Pemberton Temperance, a band which was previously known as Pemberton Teetotal Abstainance Band. The Temperance Band was always in the shadow of the illustrious Pemberton Old, and finally ceased to exist around 1947.
 
My dad was a member of Pemberton Temperance and I travelled to the contest with the band, which I had just joined as a learner. Everything else in your archive entry checks out, the date, the testpiece and the name of the 1st prize winner, so I am sure we are both referring to the same event.
 
I am still playing as a member of the Towcester Studio Band, Northants.  My main claim to fame was winning the first National Competition for Young Conductors in !962. The event was organised by the NABBC and the adjudicators were Sir Adrian Boult, Eric Ball and Frank Wright.
 
I always put banding second to my professional career  as a mining engineer, which took me, in 1966, to South Africa, where we lived until I retired in 1994, when we returned to the UK.
 
During my time I have played with Wingates, Leyland Motors, Crookhall Colliery and Craghead Colliery (now the Reg Vardy Band ). In South Africa I formed two School bands and played in a Territorial Military Band, where I was Deputy Bandmaster, as well as conducting a string orchestra and directing shows such as The King and I, White Horse Inn, Mikado and a share in Handel's 'Messiah'.
 
After 64 years of banding, I am now ready to slow down somewhat and play here and there with local bands where I can be of help.
 
As an afterthought and I in in the interest of accurate history, before World War 2 there were 3 bands in Pemberton - Pemberton Old, Pemberton Temperance and South Pemberton. At the outbreak of war, Pemberton Temperance and South Pemberton amalgamated and continued as Pemberton Temperance.
 
Keep up the good work
 
Bill Holding
Milton Keynes 

Get real people

I felt I had to write regarding the criticism of your comments alluding to the 4th section in Harrogate! 

Goodness me people, there are people starving in the world, and you are worried that 4barsrest may have been to flippant in their comments regarding your bands performances? 

Get real people, the problem is you get so full of your own so called importance, that you forget what is happening in the real world, take a step back, and read what 4barsrest actually said. They haven't really criticised any bands performance, they were just trying to get into the mood of the piece, and Huw, as much as I admire your musicianship, you were'nt there to experience the occasion. My band put in a storming performance, and had a result which destroyed me, but come on, it's a brass band contest after all! 

I don't really want to get into a slanging match with anyone, I just sometimes feel that we forget what it's all about.

Kerry Bowden
M.D. Crosskeys Silver
P.S. Music is to be enjoyed!

Investors or punters?

At the heart of Tim Mutum's letter regarding contests is the thought that the promoters ought to engage in consultation with bandsmen and listen to what they say.  It isn't a new idea and seems to stem from the hazy misconception that bandsmen are part of an amateur movement who ought to be allowed control over the contests they attend.  Perhaps some see the relationship between contest promoter and bandsmen as roughly equivalent to that of a public body and the taxpayers, or maybe between that of a company and its shareholders. 

Unfortunately this isn't the case.  Taxpayers and shareholders are investors - they put their money into their respective institutions in the hope of some future reward, whether in the form of hard cash or perhaps some other benefit for the greater public good (the NHS, for example).  And because they make that commitment, they have a right for their voice to be heard - by voting at general elections or annual general meetings, for example.

The relationship of bandsman to contest promoter, on the other hand, is merely one of customer to supplier.  Bandsmen are not investors - they are consumers.  That is not to say that they are powerless - they can choose to withhold their patronage of a contest, either as participant or onlooker, if they are dissatisfied, and promoters would soon make changes if that happened and they valued their business.  

The fact that the sort of changes being suggested by Mr Mutum (and many others) are not happening suggests to me that promoters find the status quo satisfactory from a business point of view (and they are, first and foremost, businessmen, with a living to make and bills to pay, the same as the rest of us).  In short, there is an apparently satisfied and silent majority and a dissatisfied, vocal minority.  The majority are (rightly) holding sway.

Mr Mutum is right to suggest that membership of a national organisation would give bandsmen some clout with promoters, although he seems pessimistic that it would ever happen.  Until it does, bandsmen will remain mere consumers.

Alec Gallagher
Bedfordshire 

Remember Mr Micawber

I'm not at all sure I agree with Tim Mutum's contention that contest organisers' hearts rule their head and keep their respective events going for purely sentimental reasons.  Contest promoters are businessmen running businesses, and the successful ones probably bear in mind Mr Micawber's dictum: "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

Bandsmen may whine about being charged for admission to the auditorium, the entry fee, the empty seats, and the price of food and programmes, but if a contest is still running, then (barring subsidies) it rather suggests that when the accounts come to be compiled, the bottom line is in black, not red.  

I think it is that, not sentimentality, which principally determines whether a contest lives or dies.  And while a contest remains profitable, I can't see any sound business reason why a promoter should entertain impertinent suggestions about how he should run his competition from people who have never shown much interest in running one for themselves.

Jim Yelland
Hinckley 

Thanks for the podcast

Loved your podcast on the lower section national finals. After missing out on the weekend as I had to go to the US for a family wedding, it really gave me a feel for what had gone.

Thanks a million.

Huw Cole
MD Bream Silver 

Not acceptable

In reference to the comments made by Huw Cole, I too thought the comments made by this website were annoying. I accept that you are trying to add a bit of fun to the whole event but if that is the case the why when it got to the First Section did you suddenly go all serious in your comments. 

Is it not acceptable to make fun of the top two Sections or is it a case that you feel you can make fun of the 4th, 3rd and 2nd because they won't mind it's only a hobby to them not a serious competition.
 
If you are going to make your contest reviews with an element of fun in them then at least do it for everyone and not just us poor lower section bands, as we are just as important if not more so, than the others as it is generally from the lower sections that the future stars are born
 
Martin Musto 

Rip off Harrogate?

I was in Harrogate for the finals and I had an absolutely brilliant time - great company (my band) and meeting up with friends from the past - some of whom I hadn't seen for many years. I would like to thank Avrill and Len from the Cambridge Band, publicly, for organising a very pleasant weekend...bar the result!

With regard to the prices charged at the HIC - yes most of us did vote with our feet and went off to the pub up the road - this is a good defence against another example of 'rip off Britain'.

But, this does mean that by going 'off site' you are drawing potential trade away from the exhibitors and trade stands. By the time we got back to the HIC the traders area had been closed and if you wanted to buy anything you couldn't.

I know that the contest organisers have no control over this matter and everything else (bar the purchase of bandsman tickets - another rip off that surely the organisers CAN control) is very good indeed.

Can the organisers control the refreshment and ticket prices? - surely as long term customers of the HIC they can negotiate. Cut the food price and a discounted ticket price that is INCLUDED with a band's entry fee.

Afterall, the worst case scenario is that the traders may not think it is worth exhibiting (because that isn't cheap either) and stop coming and that would cut any 'atmosphere' still further.

Julia Crask 

Some Harrogate trip this!

Now the dust of the battle has settled I just thought I would share our reflections of Harrogate 2007 - Wotton Silver Band style!. 

Friday 10-30am we left Wotton-under-Edge( for those of you that have never heard of us that's in Gloucestershire) on completing a 5 hour journey to The Cairns Hotel in Harrogate - oh boy! did we arrive in style! Attempting to leave the coach our Principal Cornet, Lisa Hancock snapped a pin inside her knee cap and was unable to move, 30 mins later an emergency ambulance sirens, and blue lights a flashing also enters the car park, Lisa was taken to Harrogate A&E for treatment ( to be transferred to Birmingham the following day).

Our conductor arrived at 7pm to be told the news - followed at 8pm by 2nd man down Ian Ford - who after teaching in a secondary school all day and taking a weather delayed flight from Bristol thought his day had been bad enough!

After a meeting and extra practice the band decided to play with a 3 man front row - could things get any worse?

After a night on the wagon the army reported for duty. breakfast was at 7am practice at 8am - the draw was made we were 12th - ten minutes before the coach leaves for the Conference Centre the coach driver informs the conductor that he has petrol  leaking from his car - whist dealing with this the conductor locks his keys, score and tux in his car - after several failed attempts to gemmy the car open, a call goes out to the AA - our leader is rather reluctant to have his window smashed - we give up and go to the battle -  we later achieve 13th place, which after the last twenty four hours rather sums up our weekend.

The moral is - We had a great time, some of us ( no names mentioned boys your secret is save with me) had a very late evening or shall we say early morning. We are all still smiling and good friends - Lisa has been released from hospital after under going surgery and is now recovering at home - and you at 4 bars rest summed us up brilliantly 'All in it  together this lot - all for one and one for all' !
 
A. Lovell 

Tuba chip
 
I'm sure this has been said before, but why in the list of "Principal Players" for each band is it assumed that the principal bass player is an Eb player?
 
Just wondered.
 
Dave Bate
Nursing Shoulder-mounted Chip

4BR Reply:
We try our best Dave, but in the end we would end up having to name every player in the band!  We will see what we can do though. 

Poor miserable creatures

Steve Walker wrote :- "It is a very long time since the National Press reported the results of the National Brass Band Championships  -  and opportunities to listen to or see brass bands on National Radio or TV are extremely rare these days."

He is spot on. 

I recall that in the early 1960's, the National Brass Band Championships were reported live on camera from the RAH on BBC TV Grandstand programme. There were several visits during the Saturday afternoon, and I clearly recall watching Major Willcocks conducting Dyke on "Judges".

Unthinkable in this day and age. I would add that I was extremely young at the time !.

In many ways banding has come a long way since then, but we have become very insular and our public profile has diminished considerably. We are now a hobby not a national institution.

On another subject.

I disagree 100% with the humourless curmudgeons who don't enjoy your style of reporting contest performances. I find your comments extremely entertaining and witty. I hope that you will disregard these poor miserable creatures.

Ian Wilkinson
Leeds 

Updating the rankings

Hello. I was just browsing the rankings on 4BR and noticed that the Regional Rankings haven't been updated. I have worked them out (I think!) to save you the trouble of doing it!!
 
1. Yorkshire 2+4+5 = 11
2. North West 3+9+11 = 23
3. Scotland 8+12+19 = 39
4. Wales 1+21+22 = 44
5. Midlands 10+28+32 = 70
6. West of England 13+23+40 = 76
7. North of England  20+30+70 = 120
8. London & Southern Counties 26+50+91 = 167 

Tim Jones 
(2nd Baritone of BTM)

4BR Reply:
Thanks Tim - but playing 2nd baritone can't be that boring can it?

What huge audience?

I quote from your editorial concerning the press and contest organisers "There is a huge audience out there interested in what we do, even if at present we don’t get to see them sat on seats at your local banding contest."
 
Is there really ?  On the face of it that seems a very flattering statement based on a view through rose tinted spectacles.  So I'd be very pleased if you could enlighten me as to just what the basis for that opinion or assumption is.  I've been out of mainstrean brass banding for about 10 years and, although I have maintained a passing interest, my experience has been rather the opposite to what your editorial asserts.  I discovered fairly quickly that brass banding, particularly contesting, is not a "spectator sport"    -and so much of what goes on in the brass band movement is only of any real interest to the participants and those who are directly involved.
 
It is a very long time since the National Press reported the results of the National Brass Band Championships  -  and opportunities to listen to or see brass bands on National Radio or TV are extremely rare these days.  The number of band concerts at park and seaside bandstands has dwindled considerably over the years.  So the opportunities for "Joe Public" to listen to or see a brass band -  particularly the best bands  - without having to make a special effort are pretty few and far between these days.  Therefore, the old adage "out of sight -  out of mind" applies   -  and there is no longer any universal awareness (much less interest) that brass bands even exist among vast swathes of the population . 
 
I would add that this is not meant in any way as a criticism of anyone  -  merely an observation that for a very long time brass bands have not been a part of the national psyche in the way that they once were.  It's just a sign of the times and a reflection of changing tastes and fashions within an ever changing and inreasingly multi-cultural society.  Without wishing to sound at all demeaning, for many people brass bands fall into the same bracket as coal fires, horse drawn ploughs, traction engines, steam trains, village fetes and festivals, carnivals, punch and judy shows, candy floss and toffe apples, donkey rides on the beach  -  and seaside bandstands, i.e. wonderful nostalgia and a blast from the past  -  but not much to do with the present. 
 
Before anyone reminds me  -  I acknowledge that village fetes and carnivals and other such "traditional" events still go on and some brass bands are still involved   -  and some bands do still play on park and seaside bandstands  -  but on nothing like the scale they did "when I were a lad". 
 
If the brass band fraternity ("movement" sounds too much like trade unions or the boy scouts to me I'm afraid) wishes to occupy what many of them appear to claim is their rightful place in the musical community and general society  -  and generate any public interest, then they need to wake up and smell the coffee, and address the questions of supply and demand, and adapting to market forces and trends.   If it is to have any kind of lasting future it has to appeal to the younger people of today   -  because they will be the older people of tomorrow.  If anyone is in any doubt as to what I'm getting at   -  just look at the average ages of people who attend James Last  -  or even Status Quo concerts  -  and you'll see what I mean about nostalgia.
 
So, I would suggest that this "huge audience out there interested in what we do" comprises mainly of people who already have some active involvement or interest in brass banding.   But a great many people less than 50 or even 40 years old who aren't involved with banding are pretty much unaware of its existence   -  and of those who are, very few relate to it.  Let's face it  -  could you really have a meaningful conversation with your colleagues at work about the results of the National Brass Band Championships   -  in the same way as the football results ?
 
Steve Walkley
Tunbridge Wells  

Something for Radio 3 to think about

I am sure the presenter of radio 3's programme, Mr Andrew McGregor wouldn't mind me writing to this publication, by saying that he will take note of my message of having Brass Band & Wind Bands cds etc on his programme. 

So keep watch out for this to happen and maybe perhaps recording companies maybe start to issue cds of serious music more often, like Black Dyke's 'Vienna Nights' cd, etc. 

Tim Wheeler 
Haywards Heath

Great weekend, pity about the prices

Having returned from the Finals this weekend. A great time was had. But one thing that stuck out was the prices that were been charged for light refreshments in the Hall itself:

Pint of Beer/Larger £3.00
£2.05 for a Muffin
80p for a Mars Bar
Cup of tea in a cardboard cup £1.10

Needless to say I did not purchase any of the above mentioned above and went to the pub just down the road where many bandsmen were. I’m sure when you know how much you can get the following for in supermarkets; Mars Bars & Muffins, the profit margin is very big as you can see.
 
Ian Perks
Walsall

4BR Reply:
We did mention the rather exhorbitant prices at the International Conference Centre in our Postcard Ian. To be fair to the organisers however, they had no control over them, but it did make it easy for people to make their minds up to whether or not they stayed in the hall complex for other than just playing. 

But what about the prices for the players?

Harrogate 2007-a tremendous experience, with high quality playing, and an atmosphere of excitement and goodwill to all, even between those in direct competition.
 
Is there a sting in the tale? Yes, of course. Was it really necessary to charge players admission into the hall?
 
Organisers, I am not seeking to be critical; after all, you do a first-class, very difficult and often thankless job, and certainly not one that I would want to do. Maybe you could just explain, telling us why it is necessary to charge in this way? Better still, if it is necessary, how about a compromise, charging players at the concessionary rate?
 
Am I mean, penny pinching, or have I now simply joined the ranks of the 'grumpy old men'? A matter for others to judge, I fear.
 
Malcolm O Isherwood

4BR Reply:
We also mention this in our Postcard too. It seems to us that perhaps free tickets for players in addition to family ticket packages for supporters seem to be a better idea to get more peope in the hall throughout both days.  

A bit of fun with the comments?

Firstly please accept my thanks for a great site and content - 4Barsrest is somewhere I visit EVERY day.

It’s fantastic to have live reports (and post contest information as well) from the various competitions. However, I do have one niggle I feel strongly about and by writing this, I hope I don't offend any of your reporter(s).

My issue concerns the reporting style from some events. From Harrogate 3rd section and even more so 4th section, the flippant and often meaningless descriptions of a band's performances. For example, one 4th section band's effort was described
as :-

Charioteers: Plenty of oats for the horses here as they power off around the track. They are in a tight reign too - not a flicker of panic after the tiger snarls. Right on the nose stuff this.

Pilgrims: Slightly nervous pilgrims but the message is delivered despite an odd sounding bass drum. Nice flow and no airs and graces to this one.

Colosseum: Lads and lasses are up for a good old scrap - although they lose a few comrades on the way. All hands to the pumps to end but they close in credit.

Overall: Carry on up the Tiber this and just as enjoyable too! Plenty to be proud of!

Can we less (much less) of this. To me it means nothing, apart from the last few words. If you're going to all the trouble of reporting, can we get back to the more traditional and meaningful descriptions of the playing, rather than all this fluff.

Thanks for listening and sorry to any individual(s) who were just 'trying something different'.

Tony Daniels 

Annoying comments

Am I the only one who found the comments on the bands annoying on the weekend?

I know you were trying to add a bit of fun to the proceedings, but it make it almost impossible to get a feel of the musical qualities of each performance with constant references to sandals an all???

I was desperately trying to follow the goings on through my blueberry in the US and basically didn't have a clue.

Huw Cole
MB Bream Silver

4BR Reply:
We do try to bring something a bit different to the contest and give it a sense of fun. They are not adjudications but try to bring a bit of the atmosphere of the contest to readers all over the world.  There were over 25,000 people logging in on the Sunday, so perhaps it worked.

Astounded by result

Having attended the 4th Section Nationals at Harrogate on Sunday 30th September I was astounded at the result.

The band that played number 13, Uppermill, were equally as good as the band that won, Formby. Yet Uppermill did not finish in the top placings. Myself and other people around me were shocked and could not believe the result. Why did it take the adjudicators so long to come to a decision on the result, APPROX 40 MINUTES!

I have never been to a contest where it has taken so long. The people I was with seemed to think that they had made a mistake with their markings somewhere, as one member of our party said ' they have just shuffled the pack for the placings.'

Having looked at the remarks on 4barsrest prior to the results their thoughts that band number 13 has won it by miles. How could such knowledgeable people be so far apart in their placings. e.g. 4BARSREST and the adjudicators.
 
Graham 

Pettifogging percussion?

I've got to say I was pretty disappointed with Mr Lomax's comments about the Open, and I suspect that he would be a lot happier if testpieces written after 1969 were banned as well. I wonder if he was one of those who booed Gilbert Vinter after "Spectrum" was the test-piece?
 
The day that those pettifogging "6 golden rules" are implemented would be the last day I bother with the Open - I can't claim to have been going since 1955 but I've got a reasonable history of attendance and (although it pains me to say it being a Manchester dweller) the organisation, venue and ticketing is now better than I've ever known it.
 
Well done to the organisers for an excellent contest; looking forward to next year.
 
Andrew Baker 

Where are the big bands?

I was wondering why you have so few concert dates on your web site? I am referring mainly to the 'top' bands.

I run an organisation for about 40 odd young brass players and I would love to find out when and where concerts are taking place. Seems to be a huge amount of contests but hardly any concerts, except GUS!

Richard Dickins

4BR Reply:
Its up to the bands to advertise their concerts on the classified section of the site. Some bands are better at it than others, but it does work if you advertise.  

Murley from Murley?

A friend in USA, also named Murley, but not directly related, sent me the web page on the Murley band in Ireland teaming up with Huw Thomas from Wales.
 
This is of family research interest as my name is Keith Murley and our family goes back at least to 1600 in Gwinear Cornwall, although we suspect they originally came from Ireland. Incidentally my paternal grandmother was a Thomas.
 
Is it possible to get a contact to the Murley band in Ireland?
 
On another issue, in retirement, I play trumpet in a local concert Band at Rosebud, Mornington Peninsula, Victoria, Australia.
 
I did try to play when younger and had a 1930 2nd hand Selmer, now worn valves. In retirement I got the trumpet out again and now play a Besson given to me by a friend whose son had it at school some 30 years ago, it is just marked behind the bell, FB, Made by Besson, England, Westminster.

It still plays well, better than my aged capabilities. 

Keith Murley

4BR Reply:
If anyone can help please let us know and we will forward the details. 

Charge of the percussion brigade 

Not surprisingly, the "percussion brigade" have leapt to their own defence in response to the letter from Mr Lomax regarding his views on the British Open. However, to dwell too much on that is to overlook a bigger issue that Mr Lomax has raised indirectly - the need for a debate on this contest and the National Championships. 

The owners/organisers of the Open seem to have the view, a few tweaks apart, that "Harry Mortimer ran it this way" and, to quote Bram Gay a year or so ago, "the Open sold out - it always does", and therefore everything is fine. Well, the second point can be dismissed, unless the organisers are prepared to release the figures or a lot of people bought tickets and didn't bother to use them - a whole row remained empty near me all day. But I digress. 

No organisation in any field is going constantly to respond to letters making comments. It would be unreasonable to expect it, but it seems to me that there are times when contest promoters really should take account of the views expressed, or offer some explanation for their actions. To do otherwise is to treat with contempt those who actually feed the event, ie bands and audience. To give an example, I agree with Mr Lomax over when were tickets going on sale at the box office. However, that is a minor issue in comparison to the bigger picture which, as far as I can see, no promoter is even willing to discuss. 

The reality is that the day of the 10 minute, all-melody composition/arrangement, no percussion, 5000 audience, wrapped up by tea time, and a concert to end the day has long gone. Yet the audience size, or rather the empty seats (whether all paid for or not), clearly indicates that people no longer have the stomach for 8-hour days with no break, pieces lasting 15 - 18 minutes and lengthy turn round times, no matter how justified. But the organisers seem oblivious to this. There are numerous possibilities - fewer bands, shorter pieces, lunch breaks, etc etc., but without the willingness of those responsible to enter into a meaningful debate nothing will change. 

Of course, if the bands supported or belonged to a national organisation, they would have someone to negotiate and represent their interests and that could lead to some beneficial improvements in that area. It won't happen. And much as "consultation" has become a dirty word in day to day life there is very little, if any, undertaken with those who support contests to ascertain what might halt the steep decline.

The statistics bear this out - Belle Vue in 1981 held around 5,000 and Symphony Hall is not full so it is under 2,000? In 1970, when I first attended, The Royal Albert Hall, including the standing gallery, would take around 5,750? last year aside, the event now attracts 3,500? Football matches announce the crowd but the audience is a big secret in banding - why? 

I am inclined to the view that the major band contest organisers are  "heart over head" and that they are consumed by a desperate desire to simply keep the events going. That is to be applauded, but they are so immersed or concerned with this that much of what is said and written may pass them by. They are administrators and musicians and not versed in the skills of listening, public relations, and consultation etc. That is not intended as criticism but my reading of the situation. 

In an endeavour to open a debate could I ask that 4barsrest, who surely more than anybody else must have the pulse of the movement and know the strength of feeling, devises a range of questions and seeks an interview to gain answers from the British Open Brass Band Championships Ltd and Kapitol Promotions Ltd? 

Tim Mutum
Ipswich

4BR Reply:
And with that all correspondance on percussion is now closed, but other aspects of Tim Mutum's letter are up for discussion. 

Remember the 1960s 

Interesting to read the article on the 1960s and in particular the piece about the British Junior Solos Champion.

The J Stark of Kirkaldy (John or the Bear to his chums) continued to fulfill his promise by contributing to the famous, if possibly unexpected,  British Quartet Championship victory by the group from Broxburn Public...am sure a young officer from the army named Renton was involved in this in some way...and then become Euphonium Player of the Year at some later stage (see Mr Childs letter for details).

This all shows signs of a mis spent youth as anyone who plays Euphonium as well as John must have spent too much time practicing...otherwise they would have ended up as a barking iron player like what I did!

Messrs Boddice and Stark were brought back together when Nigel was conductor of the CWS Glasgow band in the late 1970s and John was the solo euph. Unfortunately the band was let down by a rather poor bumper up Euph player.......oops!

Perhaps one day John will reach the appropriate standard to take semi-retirement on a 2nd barking seat...the thinking band-persons instrument of choice!

James J Corrigan 

Recollections of Festival Music 

This was the very first time I played at the Royal Albert Hall; 1956, on Repiano Cornet, with the Ransome & Marles Works Band.

The untold story concerns the composer Eric Ball, who was also the Professional conductor of the band. He disappeared the night before the Championships; ‘took ill’ was all I knew at the time. However, as I learnt later, this was a time in Mr Ball’s life when he was in turmoil, torn between lifelong religious principles and Spiritualism, which he had become involved with. Unfortunately it had all boiled over for him that night and he just simply ‘disappeared’!

On the day, the band was conducted by Bandmaster David Aspinall; placed 17th. ( ouch! ) Only 3 others, I think, survive that day; Ken Johnson, Tommy Mathieson and Ronnie James. I look forward to the Areas next March when I will be the only conductor – in the whole of the U.K. – with a direct link to the composer!

SURELY I’m going to win !!!?

Archie Hutchison.
Kirkoswald.

ps.  Percussionists won’t like it !
pps. Please can I also conduct a 1st Section band; James Cook eh? ( I can trace a direct line to Gilbert Vinter too ) 

The very last percussion word

Whilst the disgruntled percussionists before me responded quite rightly to Mr. Lomas' rant about us lazy skin beaters, I feel I have to stick in my two penneth. I too am a percussionist who took part in the British open, and would second all the comments made before by my percussionist..er..sorry drummer colleagues. Mr. Lomas clearly seems happy keeping his seat warm while us musicians (and drummers) work up a sweat trying to win a contest that takes weeks of hard work and preparation. 

The very fact, Mr Lomas, that you have only watched and, as far as I know, never played in the British Open clearly tells me that you are in no position to make any comment about any of the musicians who were only trying to do their job on the day. In this day and age of demanding modern test pieces, nobody should underestimate the demands put on percussion sections. 

While brass players are able to take their instruments home and practice any difficult passages, many percussionists are, at best forced to practice in their spare time on the bands' instruments. (which will in most cases be different to the instrument provided on stage) and at worst not be able to practice in their spare time at all, because, unfortunately not everyone can afford a xylophone at £1000 or a set of timpani at anything up to £8000! It is also vital for percussionists that they perform with a setup as close as possible to that which they have rehearsed with. 

There are always quick changes of insrument in todays test pieces, so it is therefore vital to perform with a setup that is as ergonomic as possible for the player. This invariably means that some bands' percussion sections will have to adjust the position of some of the instruments. This may seem to take a long time, but it is sometimes vital to do this to play the parts properly.  

As you know, contest organisers have sometimes dictated the setup of percussion, as with Vienna Nights last year, and also they have asked timpanists to play to the right of the conductor (as at the English National and Open this year) While this may be a good idea to save time, maybe a little thought could be given to the position of the timpani. At the Open and English National they were placed right behind the bass trombone.This can cause difficulty for the trom player to pitch propely, because the timps and bass trom often play the same pitch at the same time. When playing louder dynamics especially, this becomes a real problem. 

Given the choice, I would normally place the timps set slightly back from the gap between Bbb basses and third cornets. This way the timpani are still close enough to the band, but at the same time you're not playing right in someone's lugholes! This is not a gripe but shouldn't percussionists and indeed conductors be consulted about matters like this? And also, shouldn't people who clearly have no clue about performing difficult music under pressure, stop criticising, or come and have a go themselves? 

Would Mr. Lomas fancy doing the next Open with us? No, thought not..

J Watterson

4BR Reply:
That's it folks no more... 

The cost of new music 

In response to Dylan Richards; bands shouldn’t have to pay between £30 - £50 for a new piece of concert music unless it is substantial. But…. The bands will pay these prices but what they get for it is nothing short of a rip off and I’m sure you all know that.

Bin the cheesy arrangements; scrap the foreign publishers making a mess of concert repertoire and start buying British.

As for finding out about new music, it really only takes a goggle search. Admittedly, most publishers fall quite short in creating a good customer experience and this is something British publishers will need to address if they are to get their industry back.

There is a publisher out there who let you listen to sophisticated MIDI versions of their repertoire and view a sample… you can even rate them! The name of the publisher escapes me at this time!! ;)

James McFadyen

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