Comments ~ 2007: June

Unloved percussionists; Old favourites; taking up the mace and more as the sun comes out for an hour or so before the weekend...

Do we exist?

Once again no mention of the percussion section players! Do we exist? Are we important? We put just as much work in as the rest! Seems to me that this site is run by blinkered brass players!

Try to do without us, especially on concerts. Lots of luck!
 
Bob Stephenson
Reg Vardy Band

Old favourites?

Well, I see you have the same old favourites for the predictions for the English Nationals and who could argue with predicting Grimethorpe, Fodens, Leyland and Brighouse in the top 4?

But why on earth predict Hepworth to beat Rothwell? I heard them both at the Masters and if Rothwell had got an earlier draw they would probably have won, whereas Hepworth looked for the nearest exit after their rendition.

I predict Rothwell to beat Hepworth, but not only that, to show that they really are a band to be reckoned with and maybe even come higher up the list that you have them.
 
Tom Helliwell
Cambridge

Taking up the Mace

I would like to take issue with some of Ivor Mace's comments concerning the Welsh region.
 
He quotes your appraisal of Championship bands "there are a lot of bands currently graded as Championship bands that simply cannot compete". Compete with whom?
 
Cory, in the 4barsrest gradings are way above the rest of the bands in Wales and as in Premier league football, the better players play with the more successful, richer bands.  It may possibly help that the RWCMD students come under the tutorage of Robert Childs and Cory principals. Anyway this is not to knock Cory as they are fantastic ambassadors for Welsh banding.
 
As anyone will agree, the 4barsrest gradings are not a true reflection of ‘class' as some non-sponsored bands cannot afford to attend many competitions out of their area which would gain ranking points. Thus it is not a valid comment to say that Tredegar and BTM at 21 and 22 are a class above the rest.
 
I would agree that Cory are currently a class above all of us but we are all doing our utmost, with limited resources to bridge that gap. However I feel that, as has been proved at contests over the past couple of years, any band from the rest of us can beat each other i.e. Burryport, BTM, Cwmaman, Parc and Dare, Tongwynlais and Tredegar and coming up on the rails, Wrexham and Newbridge. As to competing with others, there have been some pretty good results for all of the above mentioned bands in National contests over the past few years.
 
Mike Saunders
Cardiff 

How do they work?
 
I have read the "how the ranking system works" but cannot see how many years' results are taken into the calculations for each band. Is it just the results over the last 12 months or is it a longer time period (how long)?
 
Nick Abbott

4BR Reply:
It is over a number of years Nick not just 12 months with the further back the result the less ranking points it scores in time.

Writing what you think

I would thank you very much for your review of the last CD of Obrasso... finally someone writes what he thinks about those shameful commercial operations.

But when you ask this question, I can answer: Black Dyke, Cory and others have done the same – some to varying degrees of success it must be said, but does anyone really think that a concert programme from these bands include regular items such as these? Playing them to sell is one thing; playing them as some sort of endorsement as Obrasso must think it does, is quite another.

The bands invited by Obrasso in Luzern play each year such arrangements, especially Black Dyke. Can you believe it? Can you believe that in Switzerland we pay £40 to hear such "music"?

Daniel Zumbrunnen
Switzerland

Ouch! 

A bit of a stinger of a review from Iwan Fox about Brighouse & Rastrick's latest CD release.

I must however agree with him though, although earlier in the month Peter Bale reviewed the Cory CD and thought it pretty good, even thought the content was much the same. 

Bands such as Black Dyke, Brighouse and Cory (and others) should start to wonder whether gaining a new CD to sell at their concerts is worth it given that they are of such poor quality that they surely hurt their hard won reputations for excellence built up over the years?

Dean Coles

Great review

Great review 4BR! I haven't laughed so much for years. Iwan Fox doesn't like it and then, or is he sitting on the fence a bit!

It has made me want to buy the CD just to find out whether it is as bad as he says it is.

Simon Curtis

Not worth the wait
 
I was undecided whether to attend the English National Contest this year, but the announcement of the schedule has convinced me to stay at home.
 
15 bands, 1 hour for lunch, 1.5 hours wait, short concert - say 1 hour, half an hour to set the stage, half an hour for the results ceremony.  At least three hours after the last band played to get the results!!!!  How many bands will have remained, well Fodens for one, but how many others?

Derek Rawlinson

An exercise in squeezing money out
 
Can anyone tell me why the organisers of the English National Championship have decided not to announce the results after the contest itself, but to wait for an hour or more before trying to get people in to listen to another hour of playing from a band?

Just looking at Fodens programme seems to suggest that it isn't exactly going to be something to remember is it. This is just an exercise in trying to squeeze more money out of people. I for one won't be doing that and will wait for the results via 4BR.

Ken Long  

Appraisal of bands

Regarding your appraisal of Championship Bands, you are right there are a lot of bands currently graded as championship bands that simply cannot compete. 

I live in Wales, as you can see in your grading there is only one band graded in your top 20 bands from Wales. That's Cory, there is no way any of the others can beat them. You've got Tredegar & BTM at 21 & 22; they are a class above the others, then come several good bands but alas not in the same class.  They know it but they enjoy playing and they enjoy tying as hard as they can. It's a good hobby why shouldn't they enjoy competing against the best, and doing their very best. 
 
If you look at the London Area then I suppose you could say that there are about 6 championship bands in Wales that any of the London bands would be hard pressed to beat.  Yorkshire on the other hand have 8 bands placed in the top 20.  If you graded the bands on a fair assessment of their ability then I'm sure some regions would only have one or two bands in the championship section.
 
However the present system still looks the best we can hope to have. For example look at the football leagues in Europe.  They are not all of the same standard, you have our own Premier Division, the Spanish & Italian Leagues are of a high standard, then you have France, Belgium, Holland coming up behind, right down to the league of Wales champions TNS who know now that they will be knocked out in the first round.
 
To sum up you could either continue as you are or you could send the same judges to all the regions and let them point all the bands and put the top 20 through to the finals, The likely result would be about 10 from Yorkshire, 3 or 4 from the North West, 1 from Wales and there'd be a scrap for the last 5 places.

Some regions might get none at all through, Scotland would be hard pressed to get more than 1, and the same could be said for Midlands and Southern areas. It would be unlikely for the West Country to get more than 1 through. If Wales got 2 through then they will have done very well.  You only have to look at past records to see that what I am saying is not far from reality. 

However wouldn't that result in a lack of excitement and general dissatisfaction in the weaker areas.  Leave Well Alone I think.  Every band hopes for that odd glorious moment.  Let them have their moment of glory if they can.

Ivor Mace

Work ethic

I would just like to back the comments by Gareth Westwood and Craig Mann regarding the top bands the work ethic is tremendous as it has to be to play to the high standard needed.

I am sure most bands work hard but at the top level the application as to be one hundred percent and people who knock it really do themselves and the movement no favours at all.

Dave Tinker

Thanks
 
My thanks to all of you who phoned or e -mailed me with info about Jack Howarth.
 
It took only 24hr to find Jack and his address. I have passed on the details to Mr Marsh who is going to link up with an old friend.
 
Derek Atkinson

Help!
 
I wonder if you can help me please, I am looking to get in touch with a Mrs Doris Banks.

She worked for quite a lot of years for The British Mouthpeice. Her husband was George Banks and her son was Graham Banks.

Brian Rostron

Return to the old clause

I liked John Clay's comment's about a six week rehearsal period for a new test piece - but I know that the very best sometimes won't use much of that six weeks anyway

What I would welcome even more is a return of the old clause that no public performance or recording of a new test piece should take place until after the event - it makes the preperation, the expectation and the actual event so much more interesting, diverse and spontaneous for the audience and the performers.
 
Keith Wardle

Six weeks? Six months more like...
 
As much as it would appear fair to see a six week period given to the bands to work on a test piece, the truth of the matter is that due to problems with player shortages, lack of good conductors and poor choices of test pieces in the first place, most bands need as much time as possible nowadays to even get a half decent piece up to contesting standard.

Six weeks? Six months isn't enough for some, so why penalise them more?

Eddie Grace 

Some of the nicest, hardworking and dedicated people around
 
I would like to agree with the comment left by Gareth Westwood. I haven't been playing in top flight bands for so long, but long enough to see that the players are some of the nicest, hardworking and dedicated people I have ever met. It is not fair to them when your spiteful comments are left on here.

It is obvious that you have no idea just what goes on in top bands, you don't realise the amount of work that goes into it, and can't be bothered to take the time to find out. Please remember that bandsmen (and women) are not paid in any way, except by the enjoyment of playing in a brass band, and the knowledge that they are encouraging a movement they feel passionately about. How about someone who knows nothing about your hobby decides to insult it without true fact or knowledge about it?

So in future, stop your moaning, and help us to keep the brass band movement going, without trying to drive us into depression with your made up, spiteful, and simply pointless comments. We're in it for the music, and if you're going to moan about it, then don't bother. Get a life, and then hope that nobody says to you what you've said to us.

Craig Mann
Faireys

Flippant response

In response to my 'flippant' remarks re the standard of adjudicators in the box, I would agree with Mr Hughes & Ms Lincoln from Nottingham, that both Derek Broadbent & David Read are two of the best and more consistent adjudicators we currently have - my apologies to both gentlemen if I hadn't made this clear in my previous comment.

The point I was trying to make is that there are some professionals chosen to judge major contests who, based on previous inconsistencies, simply should not be in the box. Yes, my remarks pointed towards some of our more senior judges (which will attract more people making wrong assumptions), but my comments are pointed towards a v small minority who should not be there & not to those who do a great job in what is a very demanding day's work.

I repeat my earlier point that the individual results from the Masters Contest a few years ago (where the judges were separated) provided clear evidence that some judges should simply not be chosen for the big events - their wayward judgements went far beyond interpretation of music & (temporarily) damaged one of the best contests in the calendar, with some top bands subsequently pulling out as a result of this.

Our senior judges should be given the utmost respect for their achievements & dedicated service to the banding world - they have an irreplaceable knowledge and experience that can be passed onto younger generations. For certain judges, if we could use this experience in a different way (eg - by making them ambassadors of the movement), their input would guide & develop bands far more effectively than repeatedly putting them back in the box, contest after contest.

Ms Lincoln says adjudicators don't get contests wrong - of course they do & every player knows it. As a bandsman, you take this as part of banding (to a certain point)

I was initially reluctant to post this comment, as this is normally a taboo subject outside the pub - each time a bandsman starts talking about bad results, someone always claims 'sour grapes' and that 'you don't listen to all the other bands', etc, etc - this simply isn't the case.

If a band puts in considerable time & money into attending a contest, they need the same commitment from the contest organisers (in their choice of adjuducator/s) - I'm delighted David King is judging the Nationals - they've played a blinder getting him on board & I cant wait to see the results.

Paul Bennett

Confused?

I am confused as to why so many of your readers like nothing more than to 'bash' our top bands.  It seems at every possible opportunity some of your loyal 'commentors' like nothing more than to portray top bands as money grabbing, faceless, unethical organizations with over-inflated egos and over-inflated bank accounts!  HOW WRONG YOU ARE.
 
Example:  At one of our most recent contests, a band unfortunately get caught up in some controversy. I then go on to read, with interest, 'our top bands are this...' and 'our top bands are that'.  One comment I seem to recall said 'our SO CALLED top bands....'
 
... SO CALLED? There is nothing so called about our top bands. If you've ever worked with a top band in contest or even concert preparation you will realise that there is nothing SO CALLED about them!
 
I'm sure the members of our top bands are quite frankly wondering they often travel 100's, yes I do mean 100's of miles, to rehearse twice a week, not getting home until 2am very often.  I'm positive they wonder why in addition to this, they sometimes spend 12 hours travelling of a weekend on a crowded coach only to go back to work Monday morning and do the whole thing again, when they get nothing but 'top band bashing' from 'supporters' of the movement. 

These bands people, contrary to popular (mis-informed) belief, get little or no financial remuneration for their efforts, doing it for the same reason a 4th section band do it.... for the enjoyment.
 
There is SO MUCH hard work done by these bands.  Some do 30, 40 or 50+ concerts a year and whilst many followers of the movement appreciate this, many just want to stick the knife in wherever possible.  I don't know the reason for this.  Is it because of envy, spite, jealousy, misunderstanding or is it just Britain's tendency to build folk up, then shoot them down? 
 
I don't normally contribute to this part of the site but with these mis-guided, mis-judged, small minded, uninformed comments that found their way on here, I have left 2 comments 2 weeks!
 
So, to the people who like nothing more than to label these hard working men and women with derisory comments... please get your facts right.  If you want to comment on any band in particular, their achievements or otherwise, please do so as we all like healthy comment or debate. 

Those of you who love nothing more than to bring our top bands down at every opportunity, maybe go down to a rehearsal one night to actually see and hear what it is like.  You will soon realise the stereotypes you manufacture are mis-guided.  Failing that just get a life and find somewhere else to vent your unreasonable bias.
 
Gareth Westwood

Flippant remarks miss the point

I would like to agree with Paul Bennett over the selection of David King to judge at the National Finals this year. Well done to the organisers – a move forward!

However, it is also nice to see that they have continued to pick experienced brass band judges too with David Read and Derek Broadbent too. Having top class conductors in the box is great to see, but having experienced adjudicators is much more important in my mind. Getting the right mix in the box will always be difficult (remember the problems at the Open a couple of years ago), but on this occasion I can see nothing for anyone to be concerned about at all.

Mr Bennett makes a few flippant remarks to make his point but seems to have missed the main one – the likes of David Read, Derek Broadbent are our best judges and have the record to prove it. Ask the bands (as has been done at the Masters in the past) and guess which names come up time and time again. 

Paul Hughes

Proud of our judges
 
If Mr Bennett was trying to make a serious point about the selection of David King in the box for London then he should surely have done it in a much more constructive way.

His opinion is of course as valid as anyone else's but the way in which he tried to put it forward smacked of silliness. David Read and Derek Broadbent are rightly seen as two of the very best adjudicators in the movement – even though Mr Bennett seems to think all judges are too old, too deaf or too inconsistent to make the right decisions!

We should be very proud of the quality of judges we have for our major events – they don't get the result wrong remember – its just bandsmen like Mr Bennett who don't listen to all the bands and try to make their point by being clever that do! 

Trisha Lincoln
Nottingham

Great news in every bandroom... 

Professor King in the box in London.  Great news for the neutrals.

I wonder how it has gone down in certain bandrooms across the country though….
 
Dean Coles

Less not more time for the test pieces
 
Is it not time for the promoters of both the British Open and the National Championship Finals to announce the test pieces only 6 weeks before the contest date? This ensures all the bands have the same amount of time to get the piece ready.

4 to 5 months in advance is too long. In the past it certainly made sure all players got down to some real hard graft to ensure the piece was ready on time.

I feel this way it becomes more of a challenge for all concerned. What do other people think?
 
John Clay

Cornish Legend
 
I write to express my sadness at the passing of Cornish cornet ‘legend' Peter Minear -
a truly great player and a man who will be sadly missed in Cornwall and beyond.

As a young player I remember hearing Peter for the first time at a local carnival when the St Dennis band led the procession. He never used music ‘on the march', but was always note perfect and his clear, vibrant sound made a big impression on me, so much so that I was determined to emulate him.

I joined the band on 3rd cornet where I sat in awe of Peter, listening and learning as much as I could. To my mind, even now, there are few who could play with such style and flair and during the three or so years we were in the band together, I think I learnt more about the art of playing the cornet than at any other time. Although Peter left St Dennis, I often helped out with his new band, sometimes even playing ‘bumper up' to him which was a fantastic experience. With his  ‘lip of iron', triple tonguing without equal and playing, chock-full of expression, it was a joy to sit alongside him and learn.

Later I became Solo Cornet of the Bodmin band and Peter was not only a cornet player to be admired but also the friendliest, most helpful ‘rival' you could wish for.  Peter's enviable record of success in local contests, music festivals and the like is something that probably will never be equalled.

I was also to benefit from Peter's kindness in the ‘real' world. After returning from university I found myself without work. Peter had recently started his own fabricating/welding company and generously gave me a job (though I could neither fabricate nor weld!) for as long as I needed it. I suspect that his fledgling business probably didn't need a young cornet player on the payroll but such was the nature of the man that he would offer help in any way he could.

On Saturday the WEBF competition at Bugle takes place- somewhere that Peter's musicianship has graced many a closely fought contest. Those gathered will undoubtedly remember and celebrate the influence that he has had with those bands competing on the day and through his work with the Cornwall Youth Band.

His dedicated lifelong involvement with bands, especially his teaching, encouragement and inspiration will be missed by us all, but he leaves a legacy that will be remembered by many, for a long time to come.

Peter - thank you.

Aaron Harvey
St Austell

The true meaning of Whit Friday
 
Over the last few weeks I've read with interest the debate over this years Whit Friday. I was privileged to be asked to conduct Delph at this year's event due to their MD and my old buddy Phil Goodwin being busy with those rogues Black Dyke who apparently used Harry Potter's night bus to get around that evening.
 
The reality of the evening is closer to those comments expressed by Mr Palmer in this column. It was exactly 30 years since my own first appearance as a young bass player with B&R.
 
Delph only just managed to do 6 contests this year due to the enormous amount of time spent queuing at various locations around the patch. No time was lost due to lack of local knowledge as you would appreciate. The majority of the Band that night found it draining, frustrating and boring !
 
In my opinion the whole idea of Whit Friday has been lost somewhere down the line in the last 10 years, Firstly, it is not called ‘The Whit's' !! The Quick Step Contests are an extension of the Processions of Witness that take place on the Friday morning where local bands played in the Church parades etc. This expression of ‘The Whits' is the start of the problem of understanding.
 
I, like others have taken part in the past with scratch bands for the evening; most notably with The Navigation in its various formats. Each time the reason was to raise money for local charities; many of those taking part having been out helping the likes of Delph out in the morning. There are now too many bands of such a scratch nature that frankly it should be stopped. Many of these scratch bands from afar are only attending to ‘Have a larf (sic)' and ‘do a few contests and then have a good night in the pub.
 
If bands want to get together for a ‘larf and get sozzled then my advice would be to look to the Beer Walks which take place the following day. At this stage this event has not be gone to be known as ‘The Beers' but it may happen, who knows.
 
Whit Friday is very serious and there is serious money to be won. At B&R many years ago, what was won was divided up and handed out as spending money for the London Weekend, but now like a lot of amateur events the money has increased quite dramatically.
 
30 years ago we had a runner on the bus, and most bands now know nothing of the practice despite the minimal need for one. The Contests have always had a bias and favoured ‘Big Name' bands as they do want them to play at their event.
 
In those days, it was part of the thrill to play alongside lower section bands and see them do well. It wasn't uncommon for players whose own band wasn't playing, to swell the ranks of the lower section bands and again, that was part of the spirit of the event.
 
It is now far too congested and being held up by bands not taking the event seriously and this is going to be one of the main reasons why band folk like me may choose not to attend or participate in future. I even heard one band this year marching down the street whilst attempting to play We Will Rock You !! I'm more concerned at the thought process of attempting this at this event than the destruction of a great British Rock anthem.
 
I would ask that all those who are attending to really consider what value they bring to the event by their appearance and suggest that they attend to appreciate and marvel at the spectacle that could possibly become a great event again; collectively known as Whit Friday.
 
Likewise, I would ask Contest organisers to think a little before going all out for record attendances by bands and weigh that figure against the amount of spectators at your event. The overall standard of bands playing this year was frankly awful. Real fans of the event won't be around to tolerate this forever.
 
John M. Gillam

Appalled by the queue jumping 

Quite late in the day, I have caught up on all the allegations of queue jumping by certain bands. I am quite frankly appalled by this.

Apart from being rude and disrespectful to fellow bandsman, it should be remembered that the vast majority of prize money is raised by hard working local committees, often by way of door to door collections in their local villages.

This is money given by the local people to our movement, and for the so called "big bands" to go round greedily hoovering this up by cheating is quite frankly despicable.

Fortunately I know that not all top bands and players behave in this way. My humble Youth Band very much enjoyed the banter with "Pirates Brass" at Lydgate and Grotton – a band containing many top players who had just turned up to enjoy the event. The fact they took time to speak to our youngsters as we each queued up (in our correct turn!!) was very much appreciated.

Trevor Hounsome

Its all about having your Whits about you...
 
Whit Friday is the greatest free show on Earth and what a splendid night it is.

However, it seems people are commenting about the amount of bands going round - does it matter how many are going round? The key to it all is organization.

Once again, 3rd Section Elland Silver did 8 contests. How you may ask? Well it is all down to planning. Before the event we plan out the route, this is done by getting a list of all the contests in Tameside and Saddleworth then a couple of our players travel around and make out a route. On the night itself you need a good 'Runner' with a phone. If the runner finds there are two many bands in front then they don't sign in, they make a call to the coach to give them the information, then the coach picks them up and off to the next venue.

For those bands that travel from afar it is worth trying to find someone local to the area who knows their way around all the narrow roads.

As to some of our 'Big bands' trying to queue jump? This does happen - they seem to think they are more important than the lower section bands. Some also cheat a little. We arrived at one venue to find several members of one of these bands waiting, they had registered the band but the rest of the band followed our coach into the village with the rest of the band, but they managed to play about 3 bands in of us. The rules state that all your band must be present before registering - this smacks of cheating to me. Come on you guys play fair!
 
Another point I would like to make is why not more prizes for the lower section band in Saddleworth? There are some great contests venues here but the name of the game is to win a few if possible so we are forced into Tameside.

Kathleen Harrison

Play the game

With regards to your article on Whit Friday. It is interesting to note the achievements of our championship bands and their efforts to visit as many contests as they are able to, and the fact that gamesmanship does figure at times.

Many of the venues do operate the sign in, play and move on approach, although it is noticeable that at Delph for instance at 5.15pm there were 16 bands waiting to play, and bearing in mind the time this would have taken, some bands decided to move on and try later. You find that at other popular venues the same can also be said and therefore it is no surprise that runners do sometimes come into their own with bands on this occasion.
 
You should also give some time to the lesser graded bands that turn out to help make the evening - the youth bands that are out giving youngsters (the future of our organization) their first sampling of Whit Friday in the hope they will be playing in the championship bands of the future. Also, Fourth and ThirdSsection bands who are made up of players who have already sampled the delights of Whit Friday but are out to help the lesser bands, (1 such band winning 6 1st prizes in their section).

Then there are Second and First section bands trying to gain a creditable scalp during the race for honours in the local sections all of which gives credence to possibly the finest brass band evening in the world.
 
Finally the adjudicators, organizers and many thousands who turn up every year just to listen and take in the atmosphere and without their efforts the event would not be a success.
 
Fred Houghton
Brass Band Fanatic

Did 4BR have the appendages?

Chaps - just read the retrospective on Whit Friday and really enjoyed it. 
 
I didn't play this year, for the first time in about 20 years (!!) and was a good write up by Malcolm summarising the night.
 
However - one thing that thoroughly disappoints me is every time Black Dyke go out on Whit Friday - they're surrounded in controversy. 

Stories of queue jumping, booking in before they arrive, demanding to play immediately they arrive are all too common to be mere speculation.  I've been there on Whit Friday - and seen Black Dyke arrive 30 minutes after us only to have to follow them down the street.  Having played for one of their rivals - I always assumed these rumours were exaggerated on our bus - to whip us up against the old enemy!!  However - having been a spectator this year, I heard band after band coming by recounting stories of their antics. 

A band that once stood for everything that is great about the brass band movement now seems to carry the reputation of "win at all costs" - with ethics seemingly cast aside.
 
The most disappointing element about this all - is that no publication or website has the balls to name and shame them.  Is "Some well know bands and their conductors should have a look at themselves" really as far as 4barsrest dare stick their neck out here?  I guess in the spirit of journalism - you could always go round and interview the relevant places where the rumours are rife - rather than skirt round it and wait for them to pull the same stunts next year.
 
You called it completely right when you said it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.  But, unless sites like yours develop the balls to report the facts - it won't change.  It's a good test of your site's ethics in my eyes - try and get to the bottom of the facts - but risk upsetting one of your big advertisers - will watch with interest.
 
Andy Kenyon
 
P.S.  These are purely my personal thoughts - and not representative of any band or organisation.

4BR Reply:
We stick by our retrospective on the site Andy - fully.  As for the question of upsetting advertisers - we are surprised we are not out of business already the number of times we seem to get on the wrong side of everyone!

Correspondance on Whit Friday is now closed.
 

Meadgate - move into the modern world
 
As a recently retired player/conductor from brass banding I've found all the allegations against Steven Mead and the actions of the contest in question an absolute farce. I always did and still do love the sound of a brass band and the thrill of the contest performance but I find the lack of professionalism and respect of a musicians credibility to be a disgrace to the movement as a whole.

If a professional musician of a recognised calibre with many years experience and numerous qualifications to their name cannot be trusted to do a job that they are being paid to do then how did they ever reach that standing?

In my other musical life, which I now have the time to indulge, adjudicators always sit in the open at every level. Regardless of event and location they are trusted to do their job to the best of  their abilities and I have seen many fine musicians from the brass band world also work in this area myself, indeed James Scott was adjudicating in the open at a festival I took part in last November!

Is the problem that the brass band world is too full of egos and just wants to make adjudicators the scapegoat when things go wrong so we pull them down at the slightest chance, or is it deeper in that we have a serious lack of trust in the integrity of the movement. Surely music, something I realise these days is very different to banding, is about teamwork and trusting in those around you. If the brass band world wants to show it has really moved on rather than make all the grand shows and displays that it does, why not show a little respect for itself and those involved in it on all sides.

Maybe then it might finally be accepted as a fully fledged musical medium and not just a small branch of musical sub culture that is too introverted and unprofessional to move forward into a modern world.

Stewart Thompson

The King in the box

What a pleasant surprise to see David King selected for this year's Nationals!  Love him or loathe him, the fact that his uncompromising style and the extremely high standards he's set for himself and those around him should make a massive impact on this contest!!

Let's hope he shakes some of the 'old boys' in the box up a bit and gets some consistency of results at last - God knows the whole movement needs it.

While the standard of contest performances have been rising over recent years, the level of accurate adjudication has dropped dramatically (look at the results from separate adjudication from the Masters a few years back), leaving too many players and listeners feeling empty at the end of a long day and the fact that 'their band was robbed'.

Get 'Kingy' in there - he won't spend the day trying to guess which band is 'Dyke', he won't fall asleep during performances, he's under 80 and he has a good ear on him!

Paul Bennett

Pre register at Whit Friday?

The current debate about number of bands competing and alleged cue jumping on Whit Friday is a shame - the event is still special and the weather we had last week made it even better for everyone.
 
Having been involved in this event for many years it is getting more and more difficult to get around. In previous years you could get 6 in easy and if in a competitive non drinking mood up to 12 - our Championship band started at 4.30pm and finished at 11.00pm all told we only did five in Saddleworth missing out in the competition ratings and one in Tameside. This dropped us well down the results.

The bands who want to compete in the contest should not have to wait over an hour to get on stage and the current first come first serve system is starting to creak under the strain and needs to be improved.

A system of pre registration of bands and provision of a time slot for such bands might be a thought
 
Andrew Davies

Disappointed listener

Having played at the Whit Friday Marches a few times and always enjoyed it, I decided that this year wanted to sit back, watch, listen & soak up the atmosphere. But I was disappointed!

We got to Uppermill just as the first band were taking the stand, all good stuff, unpacked the picnic, sat in the sun.... Great.

As the evening wore on we became aware that it was becoming more and more difficult to hear the bands. I looked around and the park was half full of, for the want of a better expression, young drunks who had no interest what so ever in what was going on? Their only reason for being there was to drink as much as possible and annoy the people who were interested in the proceedings.

The police congregated at the far end by the toilets while under-age drunks wobbled and cursed their way around them. I'm no prude but the behaviour was disgusting..... as was the state of the toilets as it got towards 10pm! There were gangs of shouting youths leaving bottles and other debris strewn all over, while the police just stood and chatted amongst themselves. My heart goes out to the people who had to clear that mess up!

At about 10pm we had enough, the crowd started to encroach the inner ring of interested spectators so we went home.

It was such a shame, the occasion is obviously great, the organisation seemed really good, the announcer was very good, but it was spoilt for me by the behaviour of a large group who had no interest in the evening's proceedings. What on earth did Fountain City Brass (who I thought were great) and the other foreign bands think of the total lack of respect shown by these people.

The interested spectators gave these bands a warm welcome but I don't think it was the best of images of our Country or our movement to have drunken louts shouting to their mates while they performed?

As a beer drinker it really hurts me to say this, but would an alcohol ban on the park area be an answer? I know it's a public place, but other towns have 'Alcohol Free Zones'? Perhaps it would just move the problem elsewhere? (I didn't think I would EVER endorse any alcohol ban, I must be getting old!!!!)

If I go back to the Whit's again as spectator, I'll be giving Uppermill a very wide berth. If I want to hear drunken idiots shout at each other, there are always the House of Commons!

Robert Palmer
Worcester

Pre qualification the answer?

I have a suggestion, which would assist the serious competitors and not put too many noses out of joint for the other bands.

It's simple and if you finish in the first 4 in the previous years contest you should be able to turn up at the same venue, register and play without delay. A sort of pre qualification like the Championship National Finals do.

This means the likes of Dyke, Brighouse, Hepworth, Fodens etc know exactly which contests they can get into very quickly. It also rewards "smaller" bands ie Marsden etc who do particularly well in any given year.

This shouldn't disrupt any contest to much as only 4 bands are able to "push in".

I helped out Rothwell this year and by my reckoning they would pre qualify for 7 contests. That would leave them free to queue at other venues with all the other bands.

Chris Bentham
Solo Trombone
Reg Vardy Band

The 'Ghost coaches'

Very interested in the comments ref 'Ghost Coaches' around the circuit as my good lady and myself were sitting on the grass at the coach park at Uppermill watching the bands leave for the march down the street.

We were rather puzzled with 2 bands (don't know who they were) as 2 coaches appeared to leave the coach park with each band but only one coach followed the band down the street - the other (seemingly empty) one turned right onto the main road and departed to pastures unknown!

John Stephenson

Brilliant Whit Friday

Last week, my wife Jan and I, hitched our caravan to the car and headed up north to watch this years Whit Marches, even though we are both in our fifties, this was our first visit, and will definitely not be our last, it was brilliant.

On Thursday evening, we went to The Wagon public house in Uppermill, where we met up with other novices and regulars from the valleys, and were given instructions as to what would happen the next day (Friday 1st June) by that well known character and raconteur, Trevor Mumford, who was brilliant, and really helped us newcomers to understand how the Friday would roll out.

On Friday we were up early to watch the parade of witnesses in Uppermill, enjoyed a bit of the church service, and then watched as about eight bands marched the various churches back through the village to disperse to their various functions.

We then had lunch at the famous Navigation Inn at Dobcross, and then basically based our selves in Dobcross where we saw the first thirty bands, then walked back to Uppermill and watched the contest there, what a brilliant day.

I'm sorry some people feel the event has gone stale, and there's too many lower section bands, and the many other moans, but believe me all the bands, no matter who they were, gave of their best and our thanks go to them, the organisers, all the people we met, and the people of both Dobcross and Upper Mill, who all contributed to a really fantastic experience.

Kerry Bowden
MD Cross Keys Silver Band

Chas & Dave?

Is Ian Brownbill now writing music for Chaz & Dave or is he composing his own Music of the Spheres - opus 147?
 
Richard Walker.

Let's talk sauce!

Who sells Horace Hawley Famous Chop Sauce? Another sauce I'm searching for, (it might be one and the same,) is  '' Old Tavern   English   Meat  & Fish Sauce by Hammonds, originally, Shipley, England. 

Can't   find it anywhere in California. Is it manufactured under a different name now?

Mike
California

Thanks from the Booby girls

All the girls from Boobs & Brass would like to thank everyone for the wonderful reception we were given at the Whit Friday Marches - it was overwhelming!!

We had an absolutely fantastic time. Our sailor got a bit of stick but he's got very broad shoulders and was all very good humoured.  The encouragement and support we received was great - we may not be Black Dyke but when we marched down those streets we certainly felt like them. Thank you!!

Maggie & Jane
Boobs & Brass 

How to end queue jumping

Perhaps an institution such as yourselves can help in putting to an end the practise of the ‘big' bands queue jumping at Whit Friday venues?
 
I have heard a number of bands complaining about the above practise; why should they not have to queue the same as everyone else?  Contest organisers should be brave enough to tell them to join the line; it's no wonder these bands manage to compete at so many venues!!
 
Do you have any comments on the subject?
 
Keith Tysall

4BR Reply:
You had it right Keith - the organisers, not us should get this one sorted out.

Masters of the Universe

No! Noooo! Sorry Guy's but Whit Friday marches is completely about "All Conquering Champion Band of the Universe" competing with "Chortle Pickle Works we've won Sweet Fanny Adams Silver" - the cueing and banter with fellow bandsmen should be all part of the ritual - it's what is supposed to make this day in the brass band Calendar special!
 
I helped Ashton Band out this year and really enjoyed it - we did ten contests without any cue jumping or any devious scheming whatsoever - had a band coach arrived from 'nowhere' and players lined up in front of Ashton - I'm sure there would have been much more than a few words said!
 
Surely some of our best bands aren't averse to waiting their turn in the cue with fellow bandsmen, are they? Are they? We've reached a sad state of affairs if they are.
 
Ian Brownbill 

No jumping the queue by YBS

As an experienced Whit Friday attendee, both in a playing and listening capacity, I must urge John Swales, whoever he is, to check his facts more carefully before writing nonsense about queue-jumping at the event.

Having followed the YBS band around most of their venues on the night as an interested observer, I and every other audience member present can assure John that this particular band did not once 'jump the queue' at any contest they attended.

It has been well-documented that the other band Mr. Swales chose to document, and their conductor, were involved in blatant queue-jumping and cheating for the entire evening, but please do not tar other bands who approached the event with the decency and respect it deserves (unlike this other 'top' band) with the same brush.

Peter Fenning
Greenfield

Queue jumping by Black Dyke

As one of the bands affected by the 'queue jumping' of Black Dyke last Friday, I would like to voice my feelings, and those of our band to you.
 
This situation was a shame, since earlier we had spent time with Black Dyke at Greenacres (their coach followed ours) and, whilst waiting our turn, several members of our band had been happily chatting to members of Dyke.  After we had played our contest, instead of moving on quickly to the next venue, we remained behind to listen to their contest march.
 
En route to Grotton, we saw the Black Dyke coach parked at Lydgate.  Because of the number of coaches we decided not to stop here and continued our way to Grotton.  On arrival we realised Dyke were directly behind us. 

Our coach stopped at the booking in point and I went to book the band in.  Whilst registering our band their conductor appeared beside me and interrupted the lady taking my details by asking "what number are Dyke?"  I found this both rude and irritating since, having passed the coach a few minutes earlier, realised that someone had gone ahead and booked them in before the band had arrived. 

We were given band number 44 and Black Dyke a number 2 or 3 ahead of this instead of number 45 - which is what they should have been had they been acting correctly.  Obviously the officials at Grotton were aware of what was going on and their conductor was challenged by one of them.  This was witnessed, not just by those on our coach, but by other people/bands standing in the vicinity and many of them were rattled by what was occurring. 

This was particularly evident in the band that suddenly found themselves held back as Black Dyke formed up in front of them.  Well done that band and coach driver who expressed their feelings by giving Dyke a "helping hand" as the set off down the road!
 
A couple of years ago we found ourselves "standing in" for Black Dyke who, having been booked in, failed to arrive at Lydgate to take the place allocated to them.  Black Dyke are a well respected band and, what they were doing, and have obviously been doing for a number of years is not fair to other bands who abide by the contest rules. 

They are cheating and should be disqualified for such an act and they should be thoroughly ashamed of what he was doing by giving this great band such a bad name.  Why did the conductor bother to argue with the official when he was the one in the wrong?  If he was to gain any respect from the unfortunate situation he had placed the band in he should have either withdrawn Black Dyke from the Grotton contest or at the very least relinquished their position and then played band number 45 which is what they should have been. 

At Uppermill no band would manage to 'queue jump' because of their policy that the coach MUST be in the car park before the band can book in.  A simple solution would be for someone to stand with cloakroom tickets and issue one to each band on arrival at a venue.  The runner for the band then takes the ticket to the registration point where the official would know that a band, and not just someone going on ahead, had arrived to take part in the contest at that particular place.
 
Black Dyke has no excuse for what they were doing.  Although it was the "powers that be" at fault for this situation, the members of the band, many of them respected musicians, must be obviously aware that they were taking part in something which was out of order and not in the contest rules.

It's very sad that all this band can think about is getting around as fast as possible and grabbing as much prize money as they can instead of savouring the wonderful atmosphere, which other bands enjoy at the Whit Friday Contests.
 
Jennie Ingrey

Can we rotate players?

Regarding the comments about the number of players permitted in a youth band at different venues, I would like to know if it would be permitted to rotate players at the different contests.

This could provide a solution for those bands with an excess of players. I currently have 35 in my youth band (with more joining all the time!) and am sure they would enjoy the experience of Whit Friday. Is there any rule about having the same players for each contest, or could I change one or two at each to make sure everyone got to play?

Jo Sherry
MD, Wire Youth Brass
Warrington

Stale Whit Friday

I have just completed my 32nd Whit Friday and from a musical point of view I think the whole event has gone stale.

Let s face it - it can t be much fun for a judge to have to listen to 43 Ravenswood's, 38 Knight Templar's and 40 Mephistopheles plus several renditions of the other 4 marches used. I know that the top bands stand out from the crowd but I am amazed that some people spend all day hearing the same old marches played over and over and over again.

We are always bombarded with new test pieces for the areas and nationals so why can t someone write some new contest marches...please hurry up.

Stuart Haigh
Barnsley

Dear Mr Wydell...you're a boring old fart.

......And, while I'm here...... This years 'Whits' was my first time...yes, hard to believe I know!

It was absolute BLAST, its Wednesday now and I'm still on Cloud 9. The experience will remain with me for many years to come. We received a rapturous welcome wherever we went - I was very proud to be there and it was a pleasure. I can't thank the contest managers, the crowds and our band organisers enough. Winning a deportment and entertainment prize was the icing on the cake.

With some contests attracting record entry levels the Whit Fridays Marches certainly deserve the title of the Greatest Free Show on Earth. I am sure even the top bands aiming for big money take part in the knowledge that the 'Charity' bands are an important feature of the event.

We had over 40 players and were able to swap in and out of the contests - just as well in my case as I can't march and it ruins my lip.

Still - I've got about 50 weeks to practice for next year and I've booked the time off work already. Oh and by the way we raised a, not, inconsiderable sum for our chosen charities - thank you one and all.

Julia Crask 

Fantastic Childs

Just a quick one to say how fantastic it was to see (and hear) David Childs last Friday at the Mermaid Theatre with the BBC Concert orchestra. I was there doing my day job playing the cello (so beloved of my band...!) and to hear admiration from hardened pros for his playing was a testament to his ability and the band movement in general.
 
Was kinda strange though playing pieces I know from banding whilst clutching my banjo... (if you'll excuse the phrase!)
 
I'd strongly recommend tuning in on the 13th July. Joe Stilgoe (son of Richard indeed) was top notch too, as were the singers. I like to think the cellos were particularly fine that night too....
 
Jon Kitchen
Aveley & Newham

Nothing to hide

In reply to Mr Nicholas Garman`s accusation that I must have "something to hide" because I feel uncomfortable with SP&S's (and others) influence on mainstream banding, the answer is no, I don't (sorry to disappoint him!).

I am no Christian hating devil worshipper with an aversion to militaristic uniforms and tambourines; I simply feel it is time for bands people (perhaps the BFBB!) to run things via a single national body.

If the SA through SP&S and all the other private concerns want to be involved in mainstream banding why not back the BFBB instead of propping up the current system of national/regional committees who are to fractured and ineffective to provide the national focus we need.

We all know the BFBB is not perfect not because 4BR keep on telling us, but because we have no history of a truly national body in this country and therefore no successful model to learn from....they will make mistakes, although I'm not sure 4BR`s accusation of poor signage at the recent Euro`s warranted a mention - the lads at 4BR will be wanting the toilet paper embossed next!

I also note with interest 4BR`s comment via "a conductor" that we have "one contest too many" at present.....is it the Biggs/Franklin European Masters or Mr Mortimer's Grand Shield/Senior Trophy.....no it's the BFBB's English National, what a surprise!

Ian Heard

Eradicating distrust

Let me please try to shed some effective light on to the debate seemingly raising its' head once again re- open and closed adjudication and the references being made to Steven Mead.

Over numerous years' adjudicators have been balloted re- their preferences, and almost 100% prefer closed adjudication. Similarly, in having travelled the countryside and asking the same question to bands and their representatives, the result has been almost 100% for closed adjudication also.

However, there are major differences into what appears to be some form of solidarity. Adjudicators prefer closed adjudication because they require their privacy. There are no distractions, and their job is to listen to performances, and nothing else.

Bands and their representatives etc. however, prefer closed adjudication because they themselves offer some distrust in adjudicators should they know who is playing. It is really quite meaningless to assume that adjudicators know which band is which. Believe me - When you are adjudicating you haven't time to even make that consideration, and even if you tried, in most instances, you would be greatly mistaken.

Are we to assume there is only the championship section? I like to believe that we champion the cause of all our bands, and I would defy any adjudicator to prophesy the names of bands in any lower section contest anywhere.

There should be no fingers pointed at Steven Mead placing doubt on his integrity. Any competent, self-respecting musician will be fully supportive of  his ability, honesty and integrity, and any mistrust or doubt  on these issues is sadly misplaced.

The Association of Brass Band Adjudicators believes, that in order to try to eradicate mistrust, there should be a recognisable period of time between the association of an adjudicator and any band with reference to contests. We, (ABBA), believe that we are playing our part in helping to make the world of Brass Band Contesting a healthier place.
 
Derek M. Broadbent
Chairman
The Association Of Brass Band Adjudicators.

More Mead

I feel whilst some comments on here are perfectly valid many simply do not take into account how much these contests actually mean to those involved.

Winning a big contest can be the highlight of a bands/bandsmans year. It means pride, ranking points, silverware and more important these days, MONEY. Not just prize money but the resulting revenue that could possibly be obtained by such things as attracting sponsorship on the back of the success; attracting more high profile, high paying gigs; attracting players thus cutting 'depping' costs; possible qualfication into other contests where more of the above can be obtained.

With an immeasurable amount pride, stature and money at stake, bands will always be keen to apportion blame if unsuccessful.  I really don't think anyone is seriously questioning Mr Meads integrity here and I actually think the BFBB are protecting it!

There are about 3 or 4 bands that have a real chance of winning this contest.  One of them is Grimethorpe. If they were to win and Mr Mead was judging the event then I am sure that a number of bands would, rightly or wrongly, point the finger at Steven's honesty in judging.  The resulting attack, in my opinion, would damage his integrity much more so than it has been by the current situation.

To sum up I think the BFBB should be congratulated for having the bottle to do the right thing and protect one of its adjudicators.  Mr Mead is now in the position where his judgement has not been questioned and he's actually gained some positive press from supporters of his who publicly announce their displeasure at this decision.  And now our top bands have no one to point the finger at should Grimethorpe win the contest.

A good decision do you not think?

Gareth Westwood

Whit Friday fiasco

m running the risk of being a killjoy here but I feel that in some respects the wonderful spectacle that is the Whit Friday marches is becoming a fiasco.

Whilst it is very important to have at least one evening in the year where the lower section bands can rub shoulders with the "big boys" the amount of "scratch bands" seemingly out for a good time and a few beers is getting to the point where the whole area is getting grid locked and it is becoming increasingly difficult for the bands who want to take the evening seriously to get around the villages.

Bands who raise money for charity do a fantastic job and I would not in any way want to discourage that but I did see bands marching down the street with one hand playing the instrument and the other holding the beer can!

Call me a boring old f**t if you must but I think it detracts from the special atmosphere and does the movement no good what so ever in the eyes of the public who go to watch. Here is a possible solution!

May be the bands who are out for a good time could finish a little earlier in the evening to allow the serious bands to get around more of the contests.

This, I know sounds elitist in some ways but if something is not done to alleviate the congestion then we may run the risk of some bands deciding not to go.

This year was my 31st consecutive year as a player at whit Friday and I hope it will not be my last!

Glyn Wydell
Huddersfield

Read and learn

As a young player Mark Scott should learn to read 'mark' and learn before making comments to the press on any subject. His comments on youth band numbers are totally incorrect in several respects.

On the Whit Friday circuit, the rules differ at each contest. Our contest at Delph allow 35 young players - ten up on the adult (for want of a better word) section. 25 players are allowed in all bands from Black Dyke to any fourth section or ungraded band. In respect of Youth Bands each contest has their own ruling which is sometimes due to lack of space on their stand/playing area and nothing to do with the alleged discrimination.

Our contest at Delph allow 35 which we think is a fair compromise and four adults are allowed to be in that 35, I might add that several youth bands fail to raise 35 and have to enter as either ungraded or 4th section due to the number of adults they need to make up their numbers.

Uppermill have in recent years reduced their numbers from 65 to 50, I only know of Dobcross who put the 30 limit on these bands, others may do so but it is up to individual bands to contact contest organisers if they have not received copies of their rules. Please bear in mind that many youth bands score higher than section bands.

At Delph we judge bands on an equal footing with section bands and the youth bands can usually give them a good run for their money! Take that chip of your shoulder Mark and get out there and enjoy it!

Mary Rodgers
Delph Whit Friday Contest

Name and shame

It's just not cricket!! Rumours around on the night of a Ghost Coach for a certain band. Booking in early and players jumping on at last minute. Wake up organisers!!

They should be named, shamed and disqualified.................
 
Andy Barron

Seething over Whit Friday injustice

I am still seething over the events that happened last night at the Whit Fridays, regarding Black Dyke and YBS.

These bands were police escorted in and jumped straight to the front of the queue at several venues, even Rothwell got in on the act. Who do they think they are?

They should be disqualified this year and made to queue next year same as the rest of us - talk about prima donnas.

John Swales

What's in a name

I don't know if the Whit Friday results go into the rankings, but if they do, you might like to know that "Brass-Fix UK" (and variants there of!) was the "sponsor for the night" name of Kidlington Concert Brass.

Neil Watson

What's your problem?

I read with interest Mr Ian Heard's comments on the influence of SP &S on banding. What's his problem?

Why not just come out and say what you mean? Have you a personal grudge to bear?

Nicholas Garman

Deplore the takeover

I do not know Ian Heard (and I don't suppose he's ever 'heard' of me), but I feel I must write to endorse his comments deploring the SP&S takeover of the previously secular brass banding movement.
 
He and I (and you) will be unable to do anything about it but, everyone, please stop expressing surprise and asking why we cannot interest ethnic minorities in our hobby.
 
Len Atter
Eastbourne

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