Comments ~ 2003: August & September

Comments from August & September 2003

Dundee Revisited

Not upwardly mobile

Daventry Brass would like to thank the person who's mobile phone went off not once but twice during our performance at the Finals on Saturday.

The first time was as our conductor lifted his baton for us to play the opening movement. The second time (not long after) the person was considerate enough to walk slowly and quietly out, but all the time the phone was ringing. If people really need their phone on, then most, if not all, come with a vibrate or silent mode. If you can't work out how to make you phone do this there is always the OFF button. What can the organisers do more? They put notices up all over the entrances to the auditorium and all the programme.

On a lighter note, Daventry had a great weekend away and would like to congratulate all the winning bands. Thanks should go to the organisers for the smooth running.

Paula Challen
Daventry Brass

A Great Weekend - far from home!!!

Its Monday morning about 9.00 am just got out of bed after returning from Dundee and would just like to make a few comments about the events of the weekend.

Firstly thank you to 4BR for giving great up to date coverage of all of the events from all of the sections. It was great for all the people left at home to be able to keep up with all the goings on of both days and your adjudication of our bands performance was greatly appreciated, as just six days before the finals we lost our solo Euph, solo Baritone,
& 2nd Baritone. As you can imagine we were in a bit of a state, frantically writing parts to cover missing parts and having to move three players into new positions for the finals, so your comments were great for our young euph player Mark Nicholls, 16 years old, dropped in the deep end. His his mum and dad were left at home but following all the events with 4barsrest, and as you said he was our star of the day he played so well. So once again thank you 4BR, and keep up the good work.

As to all the adverse comments from a lot of bands about the event being held in Dundee - all I can say is HUMBUG! The event itself was so well organised and everyone
involved at the Caird Hall were so helpful, the people of Dundee & Scotland were fantastic. I would to say to all thank you for a great weekend!!!!!!!!

Now to the result of our own section, and the adjudication - and if it sounds like sour grapes then tough! But to me Eric Ball wrote some of the greatest music for brass bands, and I personally took great care,and tried to find the music and to get the basics right. But for bands to go to the finals ignore the tempo ignore most of the rall & rit and the
most blatantly obvious rhythm dotted quaver / semiquaver - I'm sorry but I was at loss .

While I have great respect for both adjudicators, why were the basics ignored? I hope this is seen as a constructive criticism not sour grapes because I fervently believe in our great brass band movement and will always respect the decision. They will always be in a no win situation, many thanks to them, but please, don't disrespect the fourth section - they might not be the best bands in the world but I believe they are the foundation of our great movement.
Finally may we send congratulations to Brian Minear & St Dennis Band and also Stuart Chappel & Lanner & District for two great results -well done lads!!!!!! and also to Camborne B who had a lot of young players. Hope they had as good a time as we did. Welll done Alan & Marcus.

We are already looking forward to the next time. Hope it won't be too long

Derek Johnston ( Hayle Town) Fourth Section

Adjudicators - interpretation eh?

I am writing with regard to the adjudicator's remarks concerning the interpretation the Second Section Test Piece, with which I disagree.

I'm sorry Mr Morrison but I haven't had the opportunity to drink in a sunset at Florida Quays, even recently, and to the best of my knowledge neither did the composer. Likewise Mr Beckly, I cannot support your 'non-aggressive'
interpretation. The composer's notes clearly state that the piece contains reflective references to the day - most people's have highs lows and I regret, all too often, aggressive moments. Indeed the only recording, conducted by the composer, is far from the silky smooth performance you were looking for. So, to rule out interpretations which are not completely tranquil is, I feel, inappropriate.

All music is open to interpretation and I feel this piece, taking in your comments, has a wide spectrum of possible interpretations. Ours, one of the 'aggressive' interpretations, was rooted in the score.

It is a piece basically in Ternary form, with a contrasted middle section (marked agitato / giacoso) set within the sostenuto/andante of the beginning and end. Supporting our interpretation there are two 'agitato' marks in the
score with numerous accents and staccato. Perhaps more importantly there is no mark to say 'without aggression' or that implies the same. Your vehement 'non-aggressive' inference, I feel, has been taken purely from the 'Sunset'
part of the title and perhaps does not take account of the 'Rhapsody'. This is term from the romantic period denoting a freeness of form- think of Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini.

The 4/4 at figure 8 is heavily accented but without the tenuto marks which would argue for a smoother interpretation. That they are not there, I feel, speaks volumes. The section is marked 'agitato' - a marking having more in common with its cousin 'aggressive' than the 'smooth' you desired. Ball, himself, in his recording notes refers to a 'more rhythmic and robust section here', not a smooth one. In fact the recording he made of the piece has far more in common with the aggressive interpretation than the smooth one you required and, indeed, that got from the two 'outstanding' performances as you referred to them.

At figure 15 Ball has three musical ideas which sit together but with an 'uneasy' feel. The:· Ostinato crotchet triplet rhythm at ff from the trombones, back row cornets, percussion etc. reminisant of Beethoven's 5th, Mars from Holst's Planet Suite. This gives a sense of drive and energy, which slowly dissipates back to a more tranquil state · Horns reminiscent of fig 3. 'Hymn of thanks' theme · Falling 4ths and 5ths of front row cornets which feel to be in a different
'time' to the horns creating tension at the very least a sense of tension. 4ths & 5ths which are generally always associated with fanfares.

Taken as a whole these three ideas have an uneasy feel invoking their own tensions.

I therefore suggest to you there is a great deal in the score supported by the composer's own performance or the piece and reference to similar ideas used by the great composers which argue strongly for an aggressive feel. So to rule it out totally, as the public statements from both of you pre-results indicate, is unreasonable. Indeed, whilst contesting has to be based on one or two adjudicator's interpretation, may I suggest that if you are going to put such a straight jacket interpretation on the test piece, you publicly announce the same well in advance? In this way all competing bands have the opportunity to perform the piece with something like the 'feel' you required.

A. Nimlas

A funny thing happened in Dundee

After 'enjoying' several renditions of an Eric Ball masterpiece, a man and his wife were enjoying quiet refreshments in one of the local hostelries. In came some members of a band who had just given possibly their worst interpretation of the piece since the night they sight read it, much to the disgust and possible embarrassment of their conductor. They were describing their performance in the philosophical way of those who probably don't know what else to say.

The gentleman, previously enjoying a quiet drink with his wife commented that he had heard the band. He said that the bottom end of the band had a good sound but the cornets were a bit rough, tuning had been a problem. However, continued the gentleman, the soprano was ok. ‘O really?' was the reply from the soprano player, and then he continued, ‘And what would you know about playing the soprano? Do you know anything about music?' (He was joking at the time I should add at this point – at least that's what he maintains now). ‘Well', replied the gentleman that they had engaged in conversation, ‘I did win the soloists prize at the British Open on the soprano last weekend!' The gentleman in question was of course Whitburn's Gordon Jenkins, the red faced soprano player? Well he wishes to remain anonymous!!

Morag Carrie

Open relegation clarification

Would you please clarify your comments on your news page regarding our demotion to the Grand Shield. Besses were not in the bottom three places in the Open as you state. You will recall that we were 12th and are only demoted because of our accumulative total from the previous year which we accept.

Sorry to be a pain but it reads as though we were in the last three this year which we weren't. Hope you understand my feelings.

Jean Heyes- Besses o'th'Barn Band.

4BR Reply:
Just to put it striaght. The decision to relegate the three bands is based on the results of the two years of the contest - 2002 and 2003. Besses did in fact come 12th this year, but as this was added to the result of the previous year this meant relegation. Sorry if we confused anyone.

Wingates Wonders - every 2 years??

Wingates Press Release celebrating their recent successes seems just to be a bit out on the dates:

"The latest major contest success came last Sunday (September 28th) when Wingates was judged the best of over 50 bands competing in THE WYCHAVON BRASS BAND FESTIVAL, which is held every 2 years in Pershore, Worcestershire."

The contest is held every year but travels to a different venue each year. Next year it is Evesham. Just to let you know it is not a bi-annual contest but it is held annually.

David Beal

Relative Rankings

The relative ranking of every contest is based on the overall strength of the competing bands and as such, the Swiss National or any other National Championships is worth considerably less than the British one. This is not to discriminate against the other nations but merely to reflect the fact that the National Championships has on average about 90% of the strength of field that the British Open, always the strongest event in recent years, has. No other nation has yet come anywhere near this in terms of consistency and overall strength and this situation is reflected in the points available.

The solution, enter more contests and dominate the prizes in the European Championships or the British Open the way the leading British bands do and it will only be a matter of time until we get complaints from British bands because they don't have the opportunities to make the points that the continental bands do.

I hope this has given you a slightly better insight into the main principle behind the rankings system.

J. Casey
4BR Statistician

*Engage disbelief mode*

Was it not 1989 when Partita was the fourth section piece at Pontins? And are ther so few pieces available that repetition is necessary?

Are the powers that be paranoid about another Prague that they are playing safe? It's a bit like watching the old Arsenal defence frankly. If the banding world is so short of pieces for contests, I'm quite happy to donate my first major work "Boadicea, Queen of the Iceni" (for a suitable price.)

I'm going to join a higher section band, as having played Partita many more times since 1989, the thought of playing it again at the areas is too much.

*Dis-engage disbelief mode*
William Elsom
Fulham Brass Band (for now)

Largest "live" audience - what about Besses 1906?

First of all, I am sorry to see Alan and Donna Lewis taking a step back from top-class banding. Great players and great bandsmen(women) - I'm sure they will be back at some point. Good luck to them for the future.

Regarding the article on largest live audience with Thoresby band, I can't see an estimate on the actual number of "live" listeners (I'm typing from South Africa so forgive me if I missed it). In any case, I would be very surprised if they beat the long standing records of Besses O'th Barn band,
particularly in the earlier 1900's where they completed 2 world tours (a first in brass banding) as well as many other unprecedently prestigious concerts. Much of this is well documented - e.g. see their website (www.besses.co.uk). Dave Aston looks after this archive - it has to be seen to be believed!

I believe the "official" record is 125,000 live audience while playing outdoors in Melbourne Australia (1905/1906) . The pictures of this are almost surreal - you can only just make out the band due to the distance with the shear number of people!

I wonder whether this will ever be repeated - probably not due to television + radio etc. Interesting stuff though.

Clive Dickinson
ex-soprano cornet
Besses O'th Barn band

Tristan non encounter

Well guys, it's finally happened. I used to thouroughly enjoy my banding days back in Wales and got to play some superb music, both in concert and in the contest arena. I joined a band in my new area of London and had the priveledge of Blitz. Great fun, even if some may be critical about its musicality. I've now had enough. Tristan Encounters? hardly had everybody buzzing first time round. After the pains of last year I thought that somebody up there might smile on us and choose a fun yet challenging piece. I for one won't be around to find out whether I'm wrong, I'm back of to the first section to have some fun.

Yours, a gutted trombonist
Andy Austin

What's wrong with being Amateur?

In response to Ian C. Wilkinson's letter "Has Banding Become Too Much Like Football?" I find myself nodding in agreement to the view that brass banding at the top has become extremely cynical, with many just competing purely for personal financial gain. Thus we are very proud at Alliance Brass (that's right, the band often criticised as being young thug music students who are spoiling true banding) to play in the only band who will be competing at the National Finals at the Albert Hall in the true brass band tradition. By that I mean that we are the only band who are competing as true amateurs, purely for the love of it, where no-one at all (and I mean absolutely no-one) is getting paid a bean. No expenses, nothing.

Could I be so daring as to suggest that to prevent brass banding from becoming permanently soured by money grabbing "superstars" that perhaps other bands should take a leaf out of our book and become truly amateur again.

Tony Randall

Youngest Player at the Open?

Further to your letter from Karen Skelton about the youngest player ever at the British Open, I've often wondered about this myself. I don't expect to be the youngest if we can get people to write in and sort it out - but I was 11 (1st horn on Spectrum with Thoresby in '69) - Sorry Karen. (But I'm a bit of a cheat - my birthday was the week after the '69 contest.

I remember a very young percussionist with nibston/William Davies who may beat that? (Don't know his name) - then there's the Grimethorpe Juniors lot (Won Opportunity Knocks on Telly in 1967) - maybe one or two of them were promoted very early to the seniors for the '67 or '68 open? .. and of course - Alan Wycherley who is about the same age and joined Fairies about then?? - Who knows - it will be interesting to hear from others - from earlier and later years too.

I know some of "Besses Boys" joined the seniors at a very young age - Eric Willan (Recording Engineer from Bury) was certainly about that age I seem to recall. Also I remember reading adjudicator profiles mentioning various others that were very young - playing in good bands - Tony Whittaker, James Scott, David Horsfield, David Reed (Lots of others??)
My mum (maiden name Thelma Holland) was a teenager when she played solo horn at the open in '51 on Resurgam - that was pretty rare then for a young lass in the dark ages!

Oh- while I'm writing - I'd better do my cynical bit - I don't want to lose my reputation gained over the last few months!! - Regarding the age of players, back in the 70's I did lots of slow melody contests - There was this big lad on an EEb bass (good player) - I got to know him just before I had to leave the juniors at 16 - he always seemed a bit old (with a pint pot in one hand an' his other arm around a woman) to be entering the "Juniors" - many years later, around 1995, I was 37... I'd not seem him for years... I got an invite through my brother to his 40th birthday..... hmmm - wonder how much of that still goes on!?


Keith Wardle

What about James Scott then?

In 1935 then aged 10 years old James Scott played at the British Open on 3rd cornet for Eccles Borough Band.
"…He was now a member of the band that for almost twenty years had competed along side some of the leading names in the brass band world at that time. It was on Saturday 28th September 1935 that young James stepped out on to the stage at the Crystal Palace to take part in his first National Brass Band Championships, playing Kenneth Wright's test piece ‘Pride of Race' under the baton of their conductor the legendary cornet player Clifton Jones. He also played at Belle Vue the same year on the test piece ‘A Northern Rhapsody' by Dr Thomas Keighley with Eccles Borough under the baton of Clifton Jones but they were not placed. This is taken from my latest article about James which will soon appear on 4BR.

Chris Helme

Other queries answered by Chris Helme

Wollaston recording?

Wollaston Town Silver Band under the baton of F. J. Murdin on the ISIS label recorded Eric Ball's ‘Divertimento' in 1950 – what year was this a lower section test piece at London – I've not seen a copy of this recording – there are a number of recordings which have been recorded in more recent times that might be the only option available to Ms Feaver

Denis Wright Cornet Concerto

I have a recording of Maurice Murphy playing this with the old City of Coventry Band in the 1970's – if Mr Parrish would like to e-mail me chrishelme@brighouse.fsnet.co.uk we can sort a CD back-up copy for him – I also have James Shepherd playing two movements of it during the 1960's from a radio broadcast.


CWS Manchester recordings

Park Recording in Bury have a CD on sale but I have almost all their recordings which could be put on to a CD for the above.

Sly Old Fox

4BR Editor - Was that you winning the soloist prize at Porthcawl then? You sly old fox! Did natural humility stop you from making much of it? Shout it from the bandroom roof tops boyo!!! Many,many congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Watch the Stellas' won't you! We met in the Days Inn hotel in Dundee last week. I was the grey haired old bloke at the bar on Sat. evening. up there supporting Phoenix Brass & my wife Penny.

Eric - Tuba
Staffordshire Band.

4BR Reply:
Guilty as charged

Looking for females

Ruth Sharpe, who is looking for a Northern Band with a large female contingent could contact www.kippaxband.co.uk - we have 13 females out of a playing strength of 28.

Ian C.Wilkinson

Time to eat some humble pie

Didn't you promise faithfully a little while ago to keep post new comments on a regular basis? Nearly two months now, and I'm fed up with seeing the MD's Dundee letter at the top of the comments page!

William Elsom


Second helping.....

It's been over a month since these boards were last updated. I dare say that if the reason is that there are not many people writing in, it could possibly be linked to the fact that the long delay in updating the 'have your say' forum has become a regular feature of this site over the past few months and quite a few of us mere mortals in lower section bands who wish to have a voice (after all, there seem to be an awful lot of features about the top section bands and stars therein - or 'top ten of all time' in a variety of categories) have probably got fed up with waiting for the chance to see our views aired. It's particularly pointless when people come on here and ask for urgent requests for music, recordings etc.

May I respectfully suggest that if you want this site to be all about the best bands in the business and related matter, fine. Just let us know and I'm sure we can find other avenues to have our say. If not, please update these boards regularly and you'll probably find that a lot of people from bands of all standards from all over the place will want to make their views known. I know that there ARE features on some lower section bands on here but the people like me who play in them would like to have our say now and again!

I've had a gut feeling (though unproven at present) for many years that there are those in the banding world who think that the only views that count or should even be heard are from those that have been there, seen it, done it and been at the Albert Hall and got the prizes and that people who frequent lower section bands can't possibly know what they're talking about. It's situations like this that help cement that view.

I should add that, the fact that 4barsrest did, up until a few months ago, seem to by and large represent EVERYBODY in the banding world and my respect and regard for that, has made me appeal to you to re-ignite your sense of 'community' rather than I just ignore it and bugger off somewhere else.

Dave Payn
Fulham Brass Band



Not quite as bad then........

Credit where credit's due. I had a gripe at you about the length of time it took updating the 'Have your say' boards. I now realise what an effort you've put in to covering the British Open, and the lots of text messages you undoubtedly had to send out (to me included!) with the results; and when I see the comprehensive coverage you've given it SINCE the results on Saturday then I can only sit back and admire. I got my results at 20:39. Very impressed. Thank you for providing such a detailed and quick service to us bandsmen and women. I still say it would be nice for the Have your say' boards to be updated so that us lower section mortals can have our say but I now realise why that has to wait.


Dave Payn
Fulham Brass Band

Then again.......

A little while ago you promised to update the Comments Page on a regular basis ... I guess you've been busy elsewhere on the site ...?!

David. Elliott Smith

4BR REPLY

Sorry, sorry, sorry. We have been very busy, what with the Lower Section Nationals, British Open etc, but there really isn't any excuse for us being unable to update it. We just didn't take the time and that was no good.

We hereby make a solemn promise to ensure that the comments are updated regularly. If we fail then we will buy beer for anyone who points it out to us in person again. That may cost us a lot.

Dundee Finals

May I join with the many others in the complaining of the finals being held in Dundee? I have little to add to the crass choice of venue but I do have a legitimate complaint to make concerning the timing of the event. I can only speak for my own band but I am sure that this has effected others too. On the chosen day three of our players will not be there due to them having to register that same weekend with their chosen universities! This has meant the loss our principle cornet, our fourth solo cornet and our second euphonium. This of course not only means that the three who helped us get to the finals are being denied their rightful rewards but in my band having to draft junior members in to fill the vacant positions, good experience for them of course but a much reduced playing standard for us as well. I say this to the present committee..Wake up for goodness sake!

Graham Palmer
Principle Euphonium of the Wantage Band

Well Done!

Just like to say 'Well Done" on your 'live' coverage of the Open this year. I was unable to make it down to Symphony Hall as I had prior arrangements but was constantly logging on to read how the bands were doing throughout the day . Very exciting stuff! How technology has moved on and allowed us to do this, what's next year going to bring - a live webcast?

Anyway, thanks again and keep the good work up.

Ian Moffett

Beautiful Dundee

I don't know if you remember me from Torquay last year ( I was the one you phoned on the mobile at 12.30am to tell us our result- Arbroath Instrumental Band) Well, here we are a year later and yes....we are back at the British finals again, this time in the second section.

I noticed that you had Paul McLaughlin, extoling the virtues of Dundee as a vibrant city with many drinking establishments worthy of visiting. I just wanted to echo these sentiments and say that we have competed in the British Championships for the last 2 years and I think bandsmen will be very impressed with the venue for the contest. The Caird Hall is a beautiful building, with great acoustics.

We had to travel to Torquay last year so this year we are delighted to have the contest on our doorstep (well nearly....16 miles away).

Ann Ness
Arbroath Instrumental Band



What about the Flugel then?

Just a query with regards the Soloists listed to play in the bands in Dundee, why is the Flugel not listed?
I appreciate that whilst there is not a tremendous amount of solo work for the flugel in Kensington Concerto, there is still some to do. Certainly as much as the trombone.

I appreciate that this is not a huge issue but every one enjoys their 5 mins of fame and I know that our Flugel player is a touch put out that she has not been considered for inclusion in your line up.

Should you wish to rectify this she is Jo Brown, playing for the BHK UK (Ltd) Horden Band. This is her first nationals so she'd like to get the utmost from it.

James Chisholm

Not everyone liked the music it seemed?

I've just read your notes on the pieces for Dundee this weekend. Our band is taking part in the fourth section and has been playing Call of the Sea for sometime as we've had to fit in summer holiday.

Whilst the piece is pleasant to play it is rather repetitive and so different from the piece by Simon Dobson that used to used in the regionals. Whilst I accept that bands should be versatile and capable of playing many styles, bands at this level will click with different pieces and sometimes this will depend on who is sat on which chair. It was quite obvious at the open last week that the first movement stretched certain individuals and whilst the band as a whole may have played the full band parts very well a good performance was really measured by how well the soloist played. My point is that a different piece with a different style may have produced a different result.

My question would be, why have such a modern piece as a qualifier and then a very old style contest piece in the final, after all many of the bands have young members who were not even born when the piece was written.

We still have another contest in December that will be yet more Eric Ball music and I shall be glad when "the year of Eric Ball" is over and may be we can play some other music.

Andrew Faulkner

Your terrible opinion

Just a small question on your opinions! I know everyone is entitled to there own points of view and I have respect
for that. But can you really count out us?

1st section Yorkshire champions in March of this year, with an experienced team of players that will not be out of place in the top section next year....I think it should be a case of wait till Sunday, don't you think?

Mark C Wilkinson
Knottingly Band

And another one!

I am sorry but I have felt it necessary to write to you after reading your comments on your web page.

Although I appreciate that people are entitled to their own views, I really feel that in this instance you were so wrong about your review and comments with regards to not only the performance of Hatfield Coalpower Brass Band, but also of one or two other bands that I won't mention.
I feel that either your representative on the day was totally biased towards your 'tipped' bands or must have been listening through the door.

As we gave the winning performance on the day, I am not writing out of 'sour grapes' as is always suggested when a band feels that they have been unfairly placed in competition (and no doubt there will be some comments made from some bands about their result on the day), but out of pure mystification with regards to your review of each bands performance.

All I can suggest is that you obtain a copy of our performance (I will gladly forward one to you), and a copy of the bands that you suggested gave a far better performance than what we ourselves did, and then you can compare and see how wrong and unfair your review of our performance really was.

There were many well known and respected band personel who listened to all the performances given by the Second Section Bands, and all stated that we were deserved winners and gave a brilliant performance.

I feel that such a well known, respected, brass band web site, like yourselves, should be aware that the comments you make on your site are seen by many people, and could influence the thinking of many readers. If I had not been part of the National Finals, and had read your reviews and then seen the results, I would have wondered how on earth the audjudicators had got it so wrong! Fortunately, I was part of the band that played the winning performance and knew that we had given an excellent performance as soon as we came off the stage. And as previously mentioned, I also have the performance on CD to prove it.

If you still feel that your review on the day was correct, and that you had not mistaken another bands performance for that of Hatfield Coalpower Brass Band's performance, then I do wish you would take me up on my challenge to compare the recordings of the bands you reviewed and favoured to that of our own recorded performance.

Susan Pratt
Hatfield Coalpower Brass Band

Thank you for the "Urinals"

I drove to Dundee as three of us had to be in work early on Monday. It took 6 hours each way to cover the 874 miles which was good going. During our return journey a friend rang me with your comments on our performance and i nearly had to stop the car! What an excellent turn of phrase "more splashes than a mens urinal on a Saturday night" you cant know how much i needed that humour after the long day! I think you summed it up just right, however i dont think everybody thought it was as humorous as i did, but then again not everybody likes Haggis?

I would like to thank you for your hard work and diligence on behalf of our movement.

Guido Damore
The Kibworth Band.

PS we are working very hard to get those wall mounted anti-splash devices fitted to our urinals very soon!!

Laughing judges? - I'm not!!!

This last weekend I attended the National finals in Dundee. I have been banding for many years. I listened to all of the bands in the second section who were playing Sunset Rhapsody. From where I was sat in the audience i was shocked at how much activity was going on in the Adjudictors box. Firstly should i have really been able to see Mr Morrison and Mr Beckley writing their comments??? It would have been really easy to communicate to either of the judges!! In my opinion there were 2 clear winners. They were the Old Silkstone Band and Llanrug.

They were far better than any other band. Whilst band 17 were playing the Adjudicators were not looking at the score or writing anything down instead they were laughing at each other!! Is this really the proper conduct required for the nationals??? The band that played 18 had a good go at the piece but in all honesty it wasn't that good! How can a performance like there's possibly win Shirley? They gave a good performance and came last. This band should feel hard done by! Silkstone must be really down hearted as they gave THE performance of the day. I feel the conduct of the two judges should be looked at. Should they really be talking and laughing to each other whilst bands are on stage???Are they really qualified to judge such a high standard of contest??

Miss Holingwood

Not quite David Beckham

Further to the letter from Ian Wilkinson headed "Has banding become too much like football" I would like to make the following comments: -

Ian insinuates that banding is rich pickings for top class players and conductors to swap bands in return for a lucrative income! I have now been at the top of banding as a player for 23 years and yes players do swap bands but the top players don't swap as often as you think.

As for rich pickings, yes some players do get paid but its way under the national minimum wage when you consider the following:- practice, travel to rehearsal (in my band we have three players who travel in excess of two hours each way to rehearsal) Band rehearsal, concerts, and bus journeys. As an example I have worked out the average banding week in a standard concert week and then a contest week.

Concert week
3 hours practice consisting of 1 hour on 3 nights
4 hours travel to two rehearsals a week
4 hours rehearsal in two rehearsals a week
4 hours bus journey to and from concert halls
3 hours at the concert venue
TOTAL 18 Hours

Contest week
12 hours Rehearsal
12 hours Travel time
12 hours taken up on contest day
4 hours to and from contest venue
TOTAL 40 Hours

As you can see it is a very heavy commitment for a player in top bands. This in most cases is on top of a 40-hour working week! never, have I seen players earn anywhere near what Mr Wilkinson is suggesting. Lucrative it is not!

I for one insist that my band book the finest conductors we can, when I, and all the other members in the band put in the amount of effort as shown above, we feel we need to employ the best. Most conductors at the top of banding are professionals and make a living from conducting. They deserve to be paid for the expertise they give the bands. Don't forget it's not easy to pull the wool over a player's eyes. Many have outstanding ability in playing and theory. The not so good conductors get found out and loose a living.

On Sponsorship I feel instead of looking at a negative view i.e. player's leave when it dries up, we as banders should be positive and thankful that there are people willing to back our great institution.

My bands sponsor give the band unbelievable support including development of youngsters, projects in the community, commissioning new music, professional management and help with the many costs involved with entering our loss making contests in far flung parts of the world. It recently cost them around £15K to send the band to defend its European Title. Remember our sponsor had nothing to gain taking us to Bergen, as they don't sell Mortgages in Norway!

Simon Gresswell
Hove Edge

Festival Music

Eric Ball's Festival Music is included on the Doyen Black Dyke CD scheduled for release this month. The CD also includes only the second ever recording of High Peak on what is an all Eric Ball disc. Pye Records bit the dust many years ago! The masters remaining are owned by a firm called Castle Communications who occasionally issue budget priced discs. Pop into your local HMV store and you may spot some.

Tim Mutum
Ipswich

More.......

The only CD in recent times that Eric Ball's Festival Music has appeared on is one recorded by Williams Fairey, on a CD entitled 'Procession to the Minster' on the Grasmere label, record no. GRCD 42. I am not aware if this CD is still available to purchase, but I have a copy of it, if Mr Gibbs wishes to get in touch. Grasmere Records number is: 020 8666 0201.

Dave Payn
Fulham Brass Band

And More.....

If Howard Gibbs still needs a recording of "Festival Music" I have two in my collection. One by C.W.S. Manchester and the other by G.U.S. I'm on the wrong side of the "pond" to respond urgently but if I can help will be glad to do so.

John Brooks
Cambridge, Ontario

And More.........

I have Festival Music recorded by Imps in 1972 both on tape and on the original vinyl – 1971 was a good year for them having won at the Open on this piece - I can put it on a CD for the guy from West Mercia Police Band if you would like to give him my e-mail address

Chris

Will We Survive?

Can anyone tell me how on earth banding is to survive the next fifty years? I have just attended and competed at the JJB march and bier festival in Wigan and was impressed by the turnout of bands and the quality of the playing.

However what did shock me was the generosity of the prize fund! It puts so called 'better contests' to shame! I am not solely an advocate of contests anyway but I do understand the bandsman pitiful and egotistical need to compete so I go along with it as I have for twenty years now. But surely
there must come a point when we say enough is enough. £1500 quid to the winner of the best march? Where did they get that figure from? Dave Whelan must have an amazing affinity for marches!!!

Congrats to Mr. Whelan for his financial input into the contest and to the NWBBA for the running of it. It was slick and well managed and lets hope it goes from strength to strength. But with a prize fund like that is what could be a great annual summer event just likely to fade into a distant
memory? We all love to win but at what cost? Mr. Whelan wont be around for ever to pump funds into banding and I can't think of another banding 'sugar daddy' on the horizon. Having been involved in the running of contests I do struggle to comprehend if the contest in general is a viable event. The entry fee and admission on the door never quite covers the prize fund and the organization is purely non-profitable. But is there even enough funds to turnover and make it viable for the next and subsequent years? What ever happened to the Harry Ramsdens contest? Foresight on the organizers part perhaps? Where do we go from here?

Perhaps it is time to try and do what banding does best and start entertaining the general public and maybe educating them a little. Too many times do I hear 'oompah oompah stick it up your joompah etc.' and drunken idiots shouting 'giz a blow on your trumpet' when hollering at our bass
players! Is this what banding is really about and perceived by the general public? Perhaps we are our own worst enemy in some respects! Lion Tamers jackets for stage performances and the need to take them on and off when not on stage, even when setting up for a contest or concert? Male voice choir type walking outs? I'm sure the youth of today would think of nothing better then putting on a smelly old blazer, three sizes too big and reeking of beer and kebabs from the last contest outing! I'm all for uniformity but perhaps a look into Europe and Scandinavia might not go a miss. I'm a little too young to remember brass bands on the telly but with the proper guidance could we all make a positive step to make banding more accessible?

Maybe I'm just dragging up a load of things that people have been saying for years now! But I'm still at an age when I love playing and performing and I want to carry on doing this for the foreseeable future. But will banding just trundle along its prehistoric way and eventually become extinct? I hope not but surely its up to us to stop this from happening isn't it? Pause for though, you may think of a way forward. I'm trying already.

Mike Jones

Bitter and Twisted eh?

Having read the recent comments on 4br; I feel compelled to reply in support of Keith Wardle who was described by the correspondent as being,"bitter and twisted". This can't be the same Keith Wardle I know and have known since he was 20 years of age, when he successfully applied to become MD of my band (his first conducting appointment). Keith is an excellent musician and conductor who can put a good number of our so-called 'qualified' conductors in his back pocket! He has the knack of getting the best out of players of all ages and always uses words of encouragement, not intimidation.

He may have had his fill of some aspects of banding. The part where we all sit there in our smart uniforms, playing to the best of our varying abilities at such venues as garden parties, summer fetes, etc. to audiences who aren't taking the slightest bit of notice ( or appear not to be) of what we look like or of what we're playing; but he's certainly got the best interests of the banding movement to heart at all times. He was born and bred into the brass band movement and will always be a bandsman at heart!

Finally, if and when you read this Keith; just remember that no one who knows you will take any notice whatsoever of Mr Sheppard's comments but will, whole-heartedly, agree with me!!

Joan Herdman
Dinnington Colliery Band

Or just a cynic?

Having worked with and along side Keith for many years, I do understand and indeed agree that yes he is a cynic.
We do need to inject some humour into our comments and I am sure that many of us who have been into banding for a fair number of years will agree that we have at sometime had a pop at the adjudicator. I just hope that Keith keeps giving his opinion, surely that's what 4 bars rest is all about.

Going on to the subject of two adjudicators in the box.
Please let us look at my own area: The Midlands.Perhaps one of the largest areas in the country. I pose this question to Brian Eggleshaw (whom I have known for many a year).

Is it fair to the bands to allow one person to sit in judgement on a large number of Bands when promotions and relegations are at stake. I believe NOT.

Speaking to an adjudicator many years ago when there was a particularly good turnout of bands, he openly said, "that there was no problem picking the first six". May I ask, where does this put the other nineteen that day?

I believe that we can go on for ever, but will we ever find an answer that suits everyone. I beliieve not. I still remember a saying that my late friend Gerald Rigby used, "That's today done, let's get back at the next rehearsal and look forward to the next". Not a bad thinking for our movement.

Nev Buxton.

Bridgewater Louts

Having just returned from an excellent day out at The Bridgewater Hall, where musicianship and, as I always believed comradeship existed. I was very upset to see an incident, towards the end of the evening.

It was whilst I was waiting in the reception area, where they have a monitor which shows who is on stage, and you can hear the artist's. A band was on stage playing, when 3 band members from a well known band came up to the monitor made some sarcastic remark and then gave the 'V' sign to the band, When I told them it was not good bandsmanship they just laughed and walked off muttering some
obscenity. Do they think because they are in a top section band that they are better than anybody else? Being able to play an instrument is a talent, and it doesn't matter if your 4th section or championship, you make music for others to enjoy. I am not surprised that of late so many members are
becoming disillusioned with banding.

Mrs. J.A.Hamilton. Ashton-U-Lyne.

What about some fair comments 4BR?

As a member of a moderately successful, but improving Devon based Brass band, we are unfortunately used to the banding great and good of our region being slightly reticent to give credit where credit is due when talking about non high-profile Cornish bands. But,we did not expect 4BarsRest.com to be the same.

Surely, the emphasis of your report on the recent Exmouth Festival of Brass, should have been along the lines of:

"Soundhouse Brass almost sweeps the board by winning four out of a possible six trophies!" .......or

"Birthday Boy - Denzil Stephens celebrates his 74th birthday by steering Soundhouse Brass to glory at Exmouth!" ......or

"Plymouth based band from a none too affluent area of the City, who were homeless less than 10 months ago, defy the odds and come out on top at Exmouth!"

Oh`no! That would involve a small amount of journalistic skills!

According to your correspondant, the true highlight of the day involved a non-Devonian youth band - what a surprise!! can assure you, that I, unlike your correspondant do not mean to be mealy-mouthed about other bands` success, but this year`s Exmouth Festival was a rare day in the sun for my band, which was simply not reflected in your correspondant`s report.

In conclusion, can I ask you for the following information about the author of your report? Is he/she a resident of Cornwall? Does he/she have a connection with a South-West Youth band? Did he/she listen to Soundhouse Brass`s performance?

Ian Heard
Tavistock

4BR Reply:
The report was given to us by someone at the contest and so we used that report in full. Sorry we may not have used our usual journalistic licence with the headlines, but it doesn't take away from your victory does it?

London 1980

I know it was a long time ago, but my recollections of the day seem quite different to the results archived published.
I was playing for Solent Concert Band, and I could have sworn our draw was mid-table, the Dyke played before us and Brighouse played after us (we might have been 10,11,12 or 12,13,14 something like that.

I remember it because the place was packed when we played - because nobody could be bothered to go out just for one band. Has there been some kind of mix up? I also have a different recollection of the results themselves - but it was a long time ago, I just wonder if it is possible to check. Thank you all for your hard work

Steve Dunster

4BR Reply:
We have checked again Steve and you were drawn 18, with Besses before you and Brighouse after. Dyke were 20. Brighouse took the title by a point from Black Dyke. Age plays funny effects on all our memories!

Not forgetting the British Open

Well the Open 2003 is over and what a fantastic day of banding at a venue that is hard to beat for the amenities of the whole package,namely great hall,good and inexpensive parking,good eating facilities etc,why do we persist in trotting off to the Albert Hall every year to pay a fortune for the priviledge of having the nationals in the capital?

As for the playing I can only describe the winning performance as sublime with one or two other performances of rare quality.What a test for the bands and a pleasure for the listener that put to rest the memories of 2002,though I know at 4bars rest you will disagree with my last statement.What a showcase for the brass band world though with the national champions,open champions,European champions.masters champions,Welsh and Scotish champions,North west and Yorkshire champions all present and all different bands.

My only dissapointment on the day was making the decision to miss Whitburn in order to get some calories in me and the trio of muppets who sat in our seats and who became quite indignant when told that row E is not in fact row D!Can't wait to hear your retrospective reviews of this superb contest.For what its worth I felt that the performance by YBS was probably the best contest performance I have ever heard with the possible exception of Brittanias "year of the Dragon" win at the Europeans in Cardiff.

Keep up the good work with this excellent website,don't always agree with you views but wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed.

Julian Baldock. Blaenavon

The Relegation issue......

Another option to consider would be that Besses would remain in next years contest on the basis that they were placed higher than Leyland in this years contest?

Ian Wood

What about the radio covergae (Not!)

Having been in Birmingham, I was looking forward to the highlights over two Friday nights on BBC Radio 2. The coverage of bands (in my opinion) has hit a new low with no snippets of the YBS winning performance. How come, a thirty minute programme, two years ago, played Les Preludes in full, last year we got a small part of MaunselL forts, and yet this year, with two seperate movements, absolutely nothing.
I can't understand the point of covering the most prestigious event in the Brass Band movement, and yet only mention results in passing.

The BBCs decision not to do any programmes on Radio 3 is another indication that our movement clearly is not that important. You can bet though that should LTTB cover the Nationals in London, come October, they will include some of the winning performance from Enigma Variations.

It would not surprise me if LTTB disappeared from the schedules altogether in the not too distant future, Should Mr Renton and his production team read this (or anybody else's comments) on the omission of any of the winning test piece, perhaps they will respond and explain the reason why?
Thanks though 4BR for great coverage, before, during after the contest.

Julie Smith
Mamchester

The Youngest player ever?

Could I be the youngest player ever to take part in the British Open ? 1977 Diadem of gold was my first . I played 2nd cornet for Templemore and was 12 years old. Both my mum and dad played that day . Mum was bumper up. Dad , solo euphonium. John and Jean Savage, and me, karen.

P.S. I met my husband at Belle Vue in 1980 (Energy) Adrian Skelton, the solo horn player with City of Coventry. we married in 1985 (two weeks after the open of course). We neither of us play any more.

Karen Skelton

4BR Reply:
Can anyone beat this?

The Nationals - a few (odd) questions

I visit 4br.com every day, and I'm very happy with your site. I've decided to go to London and hear the Nationals. Since I've never been to a brass band contest, I thought I could visit 4br.com and seek information about where to buy tickets but no luck, and I also wonder if the orchestras only are going to play the testpiece? (Like no other selfchosen numbers like in EBBC). And finally, I failed to find out when the final Nationals is going to be held. I don't know if I'm just useless at seeking information or what :).

Steffen Y.
Denmark

4BR Reply:
The Finals are on the 18th October, the bands play the same piece and you can get tickets direct from the Hall.

Women Only Brass Bands - in Yorkshire?

I am working on a web project relating to women's history - more specifically Yorkshire women's history, and the launch is set for 27 November.

What I am looking for is an all female band or part of a band, preferably from the Yorkshire region - in order that we can promote the sight as 'women blowing their own trumpet'.

Now I realise that this might be a tall order, particularly in Yorkshire which is renowned for the likes of Brighouse and Grimethorpe. However, I would be grateful if you know of any contacts that you could point me in the direction of, or could put the request on the website for people to contact me.

Ruth Sharpe

First Female MD at the Welsh Nationals?

My debut as a conductor of a senior band was at the National Eisteddfod in Meifod this year. I later watched the performance on video recorded from S4C digital. The commentator said that he thought I was the 1st female brass band conductor in the National Eisteddfod I would like to know if this is true or not can you find out for me?

Sue Massey (Conductor Dyffryn Nantlle Band)

PS: We came 6th out of 7 which was great!

Wanted - A British sound for an Aussie Band

I have just become musical director for a brass band in Melbourne Australia http://au.geocities.com/diamondvalleybrassb/index.html) and am looking for new and interesting ideas to get the best sound out of the band. I am particularly concerned about the 'ensemble' of the band (ie they don't listen to each other!) and was wondering if you knew of any websites that offer tips on rehearsing a band. I have a feeling that a change in layout would help ( as they sit a long way apart - no matter how close I set them up!), and also exercises for band that would work on their weaknesses. They are a good band, and have definitely got potential to do better - my job is to work out what works, and then build on it.
If you have any sites or advice, it would be greatly appreciated.

Lucas Burns

Remember Wollaston (Northants) anyone?

I am looking for some help, and hope that you can assist me.

During the 1950's and 1960's, my father, Dick Rice, played the euphonium for Wollaston (Northants) Brass Band. I know that he played at the Royal Albert Hall in a championship, although I do not know which year. The composition which the band played was recorded, and on this my dad played a solo. The record was distributed by a company called Isis.
It is my parents Golden Wedding Anniversary shortly, and it would be a lovely surprise if I could manage to get hold of a recording. I realise that I haven't given you a lot of information, but would appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction as to where I could locate a copy.
Many thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Bev Feaver

Swiss Suggestions.........

I'm a Swiss Customer of your company and have some suggestions about your product listing and the calculation of the ranking.
1. Is it possible to publish also the date of the first issue of the CD's in your product list?
2. I think the ranking list is not fair aganist the non UK bands. The British National winner earns 500 points. No band from another country can earn 500 points on their natinal contest. So I think this "European" Ranking list is simply the British Ranking List.

R. Meyer
Grosswangen/Switzerland

Unpublished Test Pieces?

Is there any reason why a brand new unpublished test piece can't be used at a contest? I've heard tell that there used to be a list of approved test pieces, but I've not found any conclusive guidance.

William Elsom

The Queen

In the review of Grimethorpe's new cd, "Promenade - Music from a Royal Jubilee" the question is asked as to when the National Anthem last appeared on a cd. Not as long ago as might be thought, as Brighouse and Rastrick recorded Frank Wright's version, complete with fanfares, on their cd
"Tonight with Brighouse and Rastrick Band".

Peter Bale

Help a Student anyone?????

Hi, I'm doing some Business Studies coursework, and I was wondering if anyone would have a list of bands that currently have sponsors in the UK ?This would be of great help!
Thanks Jess Powell

A Scholar and an Acrobat

I am a relative starter with computers and the net and i am trying to find a tape recording of a trombone solo called the Acrobat.we have been to brass band concerts and never found anyone who could help .Do you have any idea of where i might find a recording of this music.i know it was on a record by Black Dyke made by HMV EA2665 but nothing further,

J.Winkley.

Well Done Johnny!

I greatly enjoyed John James's article on the use of brass bands in the world of popular music. I hadn't realised there was so much. I know the piece didn't claim to be comprehensive, and I seem to remember that one of Mike Oldfield's large-scale albums used the Hereford City Band. I don't have either of them now, and cannot recall whether it was Ommadawn or Tubular Bells. I certainly can't remember identifying a brass band in either, but maybe someone can throw some light?

Bob Mann

How many of us are there?

I am trying to find out how many brass bands there are in the UK. Can you help me out?

Jesper Holm, Sweden

Dennis Wright Cornet Concerto

I am currently a student at shire oak secondary school and am also in the brass band at the school. For my A2 level I have been asked to compare two or more recordings of Dennis Wright's cornet concerto and compare them.
Could anyone give me any info on: Any Publishers,
Performer, If the sheet music is also available
And last but by no means least, an easy way of getting my hands on one!

Any help would be much appreciated

Steve Parrish

Any CWS Manchester CD's around?

I've got a Question about recordings. There are two records new on the market, which are making from old recordings (Fodens/Mcintosh).

Now my question is, do you know something about a CD from the famous C.W.S.Manchester Band ?

Hans Nigg, Switzerland

And a big one to finish!!!!

A question I have pondered now for some time. In the not too distant future I hope to set up my own Internet based brass band publishing firm, largely aimed at ambitious lower section bands and school ensembles, but not ignoring the upper echelons of banding or indeed ensemble works in general.

I'm hoping that in the long run we'll be able to add new original brass band works to the catalogue. However, I shall kick off with some arrangements. I went through the possibilities of what we could arrange which hasn't been done before or which hasn't been touched upon a great deal and what would work for band and what wouldn't and I became increasingly frustrated.

Why? Not the ability (or lack of), of the arrangers I've earmarked for the project, I have every faith in them but what I perceive as the limiting nature of our brass band set up. Very few arrangers of published material have dared 'experiment' with the band size in a radical way. Sure, some arrangements are catered for those bands who may be short on numbers, and quite right too. But one of my chief interests in producing new arrangements is music from the renaissance and baroque era.

Too often in the past, the arrangements have, in my view, been amended to the suit the standard brass band size than considerations such as keeping the same key or close to it (i.e. for a lot of baroque music, that means say a 'bright sound' A work that was originally in D major, doesn't to my ears sound quite as 'bright' when transcribed into Bb or Ab major as has been done in the past). The works of Handel and Bach, I decided a while ago, don't always easily transcribe to brass band, but better on orchestral brass. Why so? Orchestral brass ensembles can vary in size and regularly do so and have a greater variety of instruments, particularly in the trumpet department.

Therefore, they can stay in the 'bright keys' originally intended for some of these works. OK, so 'authentic baroque pitch' is as near as dammit a semitone below modern pitch (with A=415 HZ as opposed to A=440 of nowadays). So for the D major baroque stuff, read D flat major (E flat major at B flat cornet pitch) Excellent, I was thinking, the brass bands would prefer the flatter key and still be able to keep the bright sound. Then came another obstacle. Lack of variety of tone and/or pitch. With one soprano cornet, most of the 'up-tempo' baroque stuff would be a smack in the face in that key unless you share it out with the solo cornets or rep who would be at the very top of their register most of the time and therefore struggling, by and large. Sure, another option is to share the melodic lines an octave down with say, horns and/or flugel but to my ears, it makes the music sound duller than it should, certainly for baroque.

The band I play with (Fulham) although 4th section, is blessed with a surfeit of cornets and trombones at present and has been for some time. I intend to embark upon an arrangement of Handel's Fireworks Music soon. A lot of high stuff from violins, oboes and trumpets in one of the original versions (the other original version is scored for large wind and brass only) so I intend to arrange it for 4 solo cornets, two sops, (possibly three, one using an E flat trumpet. Sacrilege I know, but there you go) rep, 2nds and 3rds, three flugels, (to give a tonal variety in the middle upper register, quasi oboes) and the rest as standard with the possible exception of adding an extra trombone and all at what would be 'authentic baroque pitch' as described earlier. Some will no doubt be thinking 'The guy's nuts' Perhaps I am... They might also be thinking, '4th section band finding three decent sop players? Uh-uh'.

I've played with a few bands where we've been lucky enough to have players available to come in, or players from within the band who can 'double up' on sop. In any case, the trouble is, (and I'm certainly not guaranteeing it would be a good arrangement anyway), if it does turn out OK, it's unlikely to sell if I were to publish it, because of the difference in instrumentation from the norm.

But hang on, I'm talking only about arrangements and of a specific period thus far. What about original music? Are there composers out there that would feel less inhibited in writing original brass band concert works if there was a shift towards varying the size of bands? I could make comparisons with brass ensembles, but then I would, possibly quite rightly, be told that it's a difficult comparison when one is openly called an 'ensemble' which implies a potential 'downsizing' when required as opposed to 'bands' which by the nature of its name, implies a larger body of players. OK, so I'll make a comparison with orchestras. Quite often, at orchestral concerts, you'll see a change in size in the same concert, depending on the forces the piece/s was/were written for. A Mozart or Haydn symphony in the first half followed by say, Prokofieff's Scythian Suite or Respighi's Pines of Rome as part of the second half would require a radical change in numbers (not the best analogy but it'll do for now).

Obviously, I would doubt that this approach would work for contests. I'm thinking along more concert based lines. I also said at the beginning (without necessarily trying to plug anything as the business hasn't got started yet!) that I would be aiming for 'ambitious' lower section bands. Nevertheless (though I'm not asking for business advice here) am I fighting tradition too much here? I know and understand there are some bands who can barely scrape a set of instruments together, let alone expand. There are also some bands where players have access to or own several instruments of a similar family (i.e. trumpet and cornet in varying pitches, flugelhorn).

But overall, my question to other readers on this site is this? Would the brass band movement, or more to the point its concert repertoire, be improved and enhanced by occasionally expanding or even decreasing in size and playing pieces accordingly? I dare say ideas like this have been tried long before I suggested it here but would our top bands, say, have a greater chance of being invited to play at something like the Proms (i.e in the RAH, not in Hyde Park!) if composers and arrangers wrote and arranged for different sized bands. Or to put it in a nutshell, could brass bands ever effectively become known as 'brass orchestras'?

I only cite my potential arrangements/publishing business as examples of what I'm trying to convey here, but your views on this subject (positive, negative and downright slagging off) will be most welcome.

Dave Payn
Fulham Brass Band

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