Comments ~ 2003: June

Comments from June 2003

The Europeans

Strange..........

I am usually one to praise your site, buy your cd's and generally think you are doing a fabulous job, whether it be with rankings, reviews, results, articles and other stuff. I have been involved in banding since my rather disruptive kiddie years, so feel that i have the right to express myself here.

How dare you criticise The Lord Of The Rings? You may disapprove, but to call me a nerd again because I enjoy this style of writing is a little strong. Do it again and I will remove this site from my favourite pages. Do it yet again and i will smite you down with my bastard sword +3 and collect my due reward! Please don't attack forms of entertainment that might not involve you!

Andy Austin



Another Tolkien fan!

Just for the sake of all fans of great literature, please stick to reviewing Brass Band music - cause you do one hell of a good job with that - but leave Tolkien alone 'cause you don't now the hell you're talking about and it stinks. Never happened to think there could be Brass Band lovers that also like great fantasy such as Tolkien's?

When I read the stuff you puked out about LOTR I lost my admiration for 4BR that had was built up to an utmost high after your fantastic reporting on the EBBC in Bergen. Keep up the good Brass Band work though!

A disappointed fan from Flanders
Wouter

Best Year of the Dragon?

Nice to see you include Desford's 1986 own choice in your European highlights, but I beg to disagree about your award of the best 'Year Of The Dragon' to BBS Fodens.

I was at both Desford's 1986 performances and BBS Fodens' 1992 performance, and whilst Fodens were immense, they lacked the panache, abandon and delicacy of Desford's performance, which was crowned by a Chris Jeans solo which was at least as good as Hudson's. I also think that the Impact of Desford's performance gives it the edge. The 1992 Euro saw Desford perform 'Men and Mountain', Dyke perform 'Odin'. Back in 1986 'Fantasy For Brass Band' was still being used as own choice. In that context Desford's was a far greater performance.

As to "Daphnis and Chloe" I totally agree - what a fantastic arrangement for Brass Band. It sent a ripple of excitement through the audience when the programmes revealed Desford's own choice. And the performance had those twin qualities which so often elude even the best bands: delicacy and passion. What a shame the rules were changed and no similar surprise arrangement were used - imagine Cory playing an arrangement of Richard Strauss' "Till Eulensepiegel", now that might even top Desford's "Daphins and Chloe"!

Daffyd Jones

European 1981 remembered

As you can see from the points advantage Sun Life had over Dyke and Cory that we were hard done by. We played Carnival Overture (Nationals testpiece 1980) absolutely stunningly with standing ovation at the end. We were condemned for playing an arrangment. Not the easiest of cornet parts I can tell you, never had any problems with Dances and Arias or Volcano especially
the non vib part !!

Kev Robbins

Aubade - another Seid?

I'm wondering if you were planning to review Aubade as you have with most test pieces for the EuroChamps. I'm going down to Bergen to listen to the perfomances of course, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about this piece.

My bet is that the English bands like this piece even less that Seid in 1996. It hasn't got the best response over here in Norway either, but I think a piece of this calibre needs to "grow" before you can give the piece justice.

Thomas Kristiansen,
Persecution/Ila Brass Band




Stop having a good time!!!!

Guys! STOP telling us what a bloody good time you're having in Bergen .............
Kay and I couldn't get time off from our miserable employers to go and you're making us jealous as hell. Life's not fair ......

Depressed of London
Maria & Kay

What about the 21st Century players?

You say in your 'Retrospective View' - "Brass band contesting has finally come of age in the 21st century" and you quote from the Carlsberg lager advert " if only the Norwegians ran brass band contests..." Oops have we forgot about the players?

Why no changing facilities in such a big place? All the bands were expected to change in full view of anyone walking up the stairs to the main hall. There was no consideration of the players at the Gala concert. Get 'em on. Get 'em Off. It was like being with the gestapo at the Yorkshire area.

All in all it was the usual band contest, players are at the bottom of the list. If this is banding in the 21st century then I think the players deserve better treatment, after all it is the players who provide the entertainment.

Peter Roberts

Grand Shield Weekend

Rothwell to prove us wrong?

Not quite sure if that was deliberate, but you feel that Rothwell Temperance, the highest ranked band in the competition, will not feature in the prizes. I heard them rehearse this piece at the weekend and I would stake any amount of money that you have it wrong. Watch out for Rothwell being in the top three.

Mike Shenton

Another one!

I see once again the Rothwell Temperance Band gains little recognition in your predictions(for the senior cup) ! Please check your records of predictions and placings for this years area contest. My understanding is that our placing was higher than your prediction. Having risen 13 places in your rankings could you explain why you don't have this band in you predictions for the top six! I await your reply.

Paul Argyle

Told you so!

The 4BR ranking system does have credibility amongst the brass band fraternity, but not apparently from 4BR themselves. In the Senior Cup contest on Saturday in Blackpool, 16 of the 19 bands were ranked in the top 100 by 4BR. The results showed that the first 14 places were taken by bands with a top 100 ranking, whilst the three bands without a top 100 ranking were placed in the bottom five.

Why then, I wonder, when 4BR suggested that the results would go to form did the prediction omit Rothwell Temperance (ranked highest by 4BR at 27 having come 4th in the recent Yorkshire Regionals) and BTM (ranked 28) when it included a second place prediction for Wingates who came last in their area? When I first saw this, with the benefit of having heard the band rehearsing the piece the previous weekend, I wrote and said that I would bet any amount of money that Rothwell would be in the top three. Well done, Rothwell, on your winning performance.

Mike Shenton

Sent to the right Coventry

Well done on your coverage of Blackpool weekend. We are not however the original City of Coventry - they eventually folded in the 90's although before that they became Jaguar. We are the old Coventry School of Music who later became Coventry CPA and then City of Coventry Brass. As your records correctly state we won the Grand Shield in 1975 under the direction of Len Pepper in the Kings Hall at Belle Vue.

J. Tine

Wingates woe for Mr Wyatt!

I write whilst my blood is still boiling about another naff result: Grand Shield 2002 - last place (the judges got it badly wrong). Area 2003 - last place (the judge got it badly wrong - this is a fact as the adjudication did not match our performance - it highlighted clear mistakes in the performance that weren't made by us. This is black and white and shouldn't happen so I can only presume that we were erroneously awarded last - but we have no right of appeal here)

Senior Cup 2003 - 8th place - condemned to at least one further year scatting around the lower reaches of top level banding...(oh yes - and the judges got it badly wrong) I can accept that a duff performance only deserves a duff result - our performance at Tameside a few weeks ago was very patchy - superbly and accurately summed up by Kevin Bolton in his remarks - and he gave us third place. No complaints... in fact can we clone him? It would certainly help to solve the problem.

Today Wingates played a superb performance from number 12 and I am extremely disappointed not to have won. There were a couple of clips - and so the door was left open, but to not even have gained promotion back to the Grand Shield when the performance easily deserved it is nothing less than sick. Have we upset someone? Is it a Masonic thing?

Congratulations to those bands who have qualified several of whom did give fine performances, but in placing us 8th the judges got it wrong - it's that simple.

Now are the judges entirely to blame? Possibly not... in the hall used for the Senior cup the box was off the the left of the band so the cornets were pointing straight at the box, the troms straight away... and the box itself looked sturdy enough to sail across the Atlantic in, 3 quarter inch ply wood - it must have excellent acoustic qualities (NOT!) What other form of music making competition imposes has such a crassly stupid system of judging?

Why do we travel thousands of miles every year to rehearsals to subject ourselves to this nonsense? Brass Band Contests are dying - and this is why. The question is do those who control decisions about things like this have the balls to do something about it? I think not - so nothing will change and the carcass of banding will continue to rot.

The future is open adjudication - if a judge cannot be truly impartial then he should not judge at all. Where there are multiple judges they should NOT be allowed to confer and should allocate rankings independently (as at Cambridge)

All I want to know, when I am slogging up and down the motorway to rehearsals, is to know that when we come to perform for real on the contest platform we will be dealt with fairly and evenly.

Frankly I don't care who I upset now - it's time to make waves to improve things for everyone. Is this sour grapes? Absolutely - and I make no apology for them because as I have said if we deserved the run of results we've had I would have no problem in accepting them. Get it sorted banding - time is running out!

Andy Wyatt

Dear Mr Gay......

Following the Grand Shield result on 3 May, I am writing to request your immediate retirement from brass band adjudicating.

I attended the contest as a "neutral" and heard a number of very fine performances (Scottish Co-op and JAG Mount Charles amongst them). However, in my book (and in the opinion of just about everyone who heard them), Flowers were clearly the band of the day. They produced a performance of real quality and musicianship which had the audience spellbound at times. True, they had one or two slips, but your assertion that they deserved 7th place behind Fishburn, Yorkshire Co-op and Beaumaris is laughable.

I was so shocked by the result that, when I got home, I decided to investigate whether you had presided over any controversial results before. Imagine my delight, then, when entering a search on 4barsrest of the words "Bram Gay controversial" to find an article called "The Ten Most Controversial Brass Band Contest Results since 1990". What might this reveal I wondered?

Well, it reveals that (even before the Grand Shield) you had been instrumental in not one, but two of the biggest cock-ups of the last 7 years. The first was the British Open in 1996 when you decided that Marple were worthy of first place. The second was the Yorkshire Area 1999 when you decided that Carlton Main (winners at the Grand Shield) should win by 4 points - 14 points ahead of Black Dyke and 12 points ahead of YBS. This result was, according to 4barsrest, "greeted with the type of silence that accompanies the announcement of the death of the monarch".

Enough is enough. No-one is suggesting that you are doing anything other than offering your honest opinion of the correct results. However, the problem is that you are hopelessly out of touch with the modern brass band world and no longer reflect (if indeed you ever did) the consensus of opinion in our movement.

Please let this be the last time that you ruin a contest and, now that you are deep into your eighth decade, I think it's time to do the decent thing and hang up your pen.

Edward Allen

Someone else not a happy bunny...

The Grand Shield Results in reverse order..........

Did some old fart mix their papers up!!
Ransome
Thoresby Colliery.
Freckleton
Bodmin.
Desford Colliery.
Aveley and Newham
B.T.M.
Burry Port Town.
Skelmanthorpe
ASDA Stocksbridge.
Kibworth.
Sellers International.
East Yorkshire Motor Services
Glossop Old.
Flowers.
Beaumaris.
Yorkshire Co-operatives
Fishburn.
JAG Mount Charles.
Scottish Co-op.
Carlton Main Frickley Colliery

Keith Wardle

Spring Festival Promotion and Relegation Rules

I know we are in the early years of the Senior Trophy and Senior Cup but I can't help thinking that we've not yet got the promotion and relegation criteria right yet.

I support a lot of what is being proposed - including the two-year rule before a band is relegated. However having six bands relegated from the Grand Shield into the Senior Cup for me causes too much turbulence in the contest. From what I can make out from this years results (it is my interpretation of the rules and I may have got it wrong!), because the promoted bands have a year's grace, bands like Aveley and Newham (4th/16th) and Skelmanthorpe (10th/13th) now find themselves in the Senior Cup next year. It looks like you needed to have a top 8 finish this year to stay up.

When you consider Bram Gay's comments at the end of the contest that outside of the top few bands, it was very difficult to differentiate between bands (one can therefore assume that bands placed 8-16 could in reality have been placed anywhere on this list) - those that found themselves at the bottom of this list now find themselves in the Senior Cup. This feels more that a little tough on those bands - 10th and 13th does not feel like relegation performance and relegation after a one-off 16th after 4th last year is also a little punitive.

I like that fact that promotion to the Open is limited to the top two bands - it really forces quality too the top. Should the organisers not continue this principle with the Grand Shield and Senior Cup also? This could be achieved quite easily by only relegating four bands from the Grand Shield and promoting a similar number from the Senior Cup. I think the six and six works well for the Senior Cup/Senior Trophy.

I believe that this stepped promotion and relegation hierarchy will add more zest to the promotion placings in the Senior Cup and will also ensure over time that the better bands levitate to the top and will lead to more stability in each competition. Importantly it continues to allow opportunities for new bands to enter the competition.

I wonder if others have similar views. Perhaps 4 bars rest can lead the voice for change in 2004!

As an aside it was nice to experience the informal singing contest in the bar prior to the results ceremony. The Cornishmen from Bodmin put up a sterling effort but in the end were simply out muscled by the ladies and gentlemen of Bedwas, Trethomas and Machen - supplemented by a whole host of ex-patriate Welsh folk associated with a myriad of other bands.......great stuff!

Andrew Richards

Did you hear us?

Can I ask - did your correspondent actually hear the performance of Kippax who "Had problems in all departments"? I didn't hear any problems in ANY departments, and I was on stage.

This is not just "Sour Grapes" - I have played (in the past) with top bands at the highest level , and consider that I can differenciate between a good solid performance, with virtuoso performances from all soloists, with no splits, from a performance described as "Having problems in all departments"

Okay, okay, so I'm whinging, but sometimes, when you know you've played well, to be told you were rubbish, and out of your class, really gets a bit irksome. I heard several bands who played before us, some of whom I would have rated well below our efforts, in fact, and more to the point how did Kinneil end up 10th ? - they played an excellent band ?

We've nothing to be ashamed of - perhaps the adjudicators have !! (Especially as one of them professed in his pre decision speech that he thought he was judging the 1903 Contest !! )

The above opinions are entirely my own, and are not in anyway intended to express the policy of Kippax Band.
- Go on then - Shoot !!!!!!!!!

Ian C. Wilkinson




Well done and Thanks!!

No need to publish this but I thought the 4BR Grand Shield retrospective was excellent - it was honest, focused on the playing, and was very much in tune with the audience's views on the day. Well done and thank you !

P. Knight.

Inept Adjudication?

After another inept adjudication, something to which we have all become accustomed, I was hoping that your site would give me "closure" on the Grand Shield.

I would attribute this e-mail to sour grapes as my band wasn't favoured by the roulette wheel of results this time. However, I would like to convey my growing apathy at the random results that have been the fruits of my labour for the past couple of years.

One thing I have been able to rely upon, besides the consistancy of inconsistant results, has been your site calling a spade a spade. I tend not to take much notice of the "results" any more, but wait for your retrospective. I'm not going to bang on about rubbish adjudication so please make space on your site for, dare I say, a less narrow-minded view of the day's performances.


Martin Britt

Are you taking the biscuit?

I have always valued your opinions concerning various contests , but I have to say how disappointing it was to read your assessments and comments in respect of this year's Grand Shield - they really do take the biscuit!!

Having earlier stated what you expected from Tallis Variations, ie 'an insightful musical interpretation full of musical sensitivity', you then totally and almost viciously pull apart the winning performance, which to my ear, and a great many others, certainly followed this remit to the letter. What is this 'bluff rugged strength' and 'blood and thunder showcase'? Yes, it did appear in some other performances, not however, in the winners - not from where I was sitting. And how can you say a vast majority off the audience agreed with you after the reception they were given?

Did your critic not read the adjudicators' remarks or hear Bram Gay's comments at the end of the contest? Did he not faithfully follow the score as the winning Band obviously did, producing correct rhythms, tempo and shape with nothing overdone? Did Mr James actually hear their performance?!!

Well done Carlton Main Frickley Colliery Band. A well-deserved and hard-worked for victory. Here's one person, at least, who will praise and congratulate you and who thought you got it 'just right'!!

Mrs V M Griffin

Self Preservation Society

I read the letter, 'Grand Shield Relegation - Self Preservation?' from Gareth John, in your last comments section with great interest. For bands such as Thoresby and Burry Port Town (and other bands in the same situation), having fought hard for promotion last year and now find themselves seemingly relegated if this wholly unfair system is to be believed, it is grossly unjust! Just to inject a touch of cynicism - it will be interesting to read what the organisers decide to do with 'big name' Desford Colliery - I know where I'd put my money!

Bands that are relegated have an unfair advantage while newly promoted bands have an uphill struggle on their hands - this needs to be evened out.

David Batte

A sop blows off - fff!

Just a few corrections to note for your 'official adjudicator'. The
soprano cornet part towards the closing section of Tallis is marked 'FFF' which exceeds all other dynamics playing at that time. The direction from both Stan Lippeatt and John Hudson were consistent in asking for this to cut through the band by turning out towards the box. Both musicians whom I respect and under their direction observed their request.

You should also note that the solo euphonium player on the day was David Belshaw (formerly of Ransomes) who now holds the seat of Principal Euphonium with the Thoresby Colliery Band. If Terry Wells' playing won you over then he is better than I thought 'cos he was sat in the audience with Stan.

Simon Oates




And did you hear us as well?

Having read the comments that you have wrote about Aldbourne Band, I would like to know how you managed to do this without actually listening to the band. I know this because your reporter was seen leaving the hall as Aldbourne Band were setting up the stage.

I would be greatful if you could provide us with an explanation as it is proving an interesting conversation in the band room.

Mia

4BR Reply: We have checked with our man and he popped out and back in time to hear all the bands!


And the Desford question?

Referring to your editorial,'The Relegation Issue'; you write, 'The question of what will happen to Desford is still to be resolved as yet'.

What is there to resolve? Desford came in the bottom six because they obviously weren't the best band in the Grand Shield. They didn't compete in the Open in 2002, they should be awarded thirteen points. Just because they are a 'name' band it seems we try to find loopholes.It's time we started having a level playing field. There are an awful lot of very good bands who are not 'names'.If it had been a run of the mill band in this position, they would have been awarded thirteen points without question.

If Desford are such a good band they will be back in the open the year after next. It's not a long time to wait compared to some of the relegated bands from the Trophy who might have to wait five or six years before getting another invite.
If Desford aren't relegated, are a band that finished above them going to be?, or are the band that finished sixth in the Cup not going to be promoted? Neither of those options are remotely fair.

This would mean having 22 bands in the Shield next year ,creating an even bigger lottery in the Open dogfight. Perhaps the 'tongue in cheek' option would be to invite them straight back into the Open as they are obviously one of the best bands in the world. Fair play to all.

Billy Brook.

Lets make it an average contest.

Spring Festival:
The promotion/relegation issue needs to be changed....the idea of 8 of the bands in next years Grand Shield starting on ZERO points is hardly fair to those bands who were given a duff result this year....and there were a few of those!!

To sort this out, make ALL bands promoted/ relegated start with the AVERAGE of the section - a system that works ok on the Areas and is MUCH fairer to all.

British Open:
The top placed "Non-British" band in the European should receive an invitation to the British Open Each Year.

Peter Bansford

West of England Revisited

Cheating Reply - from the official source

I am writing as secretary of the Council of West of England BBA's and contest secretary and controller of the Regional Championships held recently in Torquay.

If Matt or any other person attending the contest has full factual evidence of "cheating" by a winning band, having had rehearsals with one of the adjudicators, then the proper course of action would have been to bring the allegation to my attention on the day or lodged an objection as per the rules within 14 days. The Council cannot take any action in this particular matter, but believe we appoint the best adjudicators available in whom we have the fullest confidence as to their honesty and integrity.

As to other comments as to why the West of England is always last in the series, next year the dates are 27/28 March, and in 2005 will be 11/12 March, both years at the Riviera International Conference Centre, Torquay.

Brian Elliott

Australia Revisited

Not good enough!

I am writing in regards to the recent Australian National Championships held in Newcastle over the Easter weekend.
I was dismayed with the results of the "A" grade section. It needs to be made clear to the organising committees of the national and state band leagues that having one adjudicator per section for a major contest is not good enough, especially for our premier section. It puts too much pressure on that one person to make the decision. I have been playing with "A" grade at nationals since 1998 and in that time we have never used more than one and I'm pretty sure it has been many years since more than one was used. Surely three would be a better option for a fair contest?

My band at times has been the beneficiary of this system but we have also been on the wrong end of the stick too. All we would ask for is a fair contest. As a band we don't really have any problems with the results over Easter as we don't put much emphasis on contests, but there where other bands that put in admirable performances and they got canned in the results. It seems that no one here can get this message through to our band leagues and I am hoping that some outside influence may help our cause.

Mark Fitzpatrick
Soprano Cornet
Hawthorn Brass Band, Melbourne, Australia

Australian critique.

As the retired conductor of the very successful Waratah Brass over a ten year period I was asked to write a critique of the top three bands at this years nationals. This of course meant that apart from the adjudicator I was one of the only people to hear every performance on both days.

In your report I saw an anomaly waitakere were said to have been placed 4th in the own choice section, in fact they were placed 7th this didn't affect the aggregate but facts are facts. Jazz played by waitakere was not well played and it got off to a disastrous start with the eupho cadenza and it seemed to me to take most of the rest of the piece to get back on track most of the soloists were not without serious blemishes, There was enough pressure on the soloists without having them stand up, and as the adj. was in the box what was the purpose.

To stand in a venue the size of the RAH might achieve a better projection but in the city hall nothing was gained. However excitement built towards the end and gave a good finish. Having played in that hall on many occasions with my band it doesn't take long to realise that the hall is very live and if you go OTT all clarity is lost. In addition to put the percussion right up against a wooden wall that's part of the sound shell and not make adjustments is suicidal, as the audience found out, although most conductors didn't seem to notice.

Why have heavy base drum playing in an on stage March, nobody has to keep in step and this also spoilt a lot of fine performances with the reverb around the hall. The biggest problem with most bands were trying to, in my opinion, cover up some bad playing by playing to fast and to loud particularly in "Harmony Music" and in complete disagreement with Mr Brand comments, none of the bands I heard over the weekend would be musically capable of taking their place in the top section of the U K contesting scene, this is my opinion
based on 11 visits to all the major contests in England.

Brisbane excelsior stood out for me as not only was their playing tuneful and musical but it was the only band that observed the correct dynamics in all they played, this band is directed also by an English expat Howard Taylor. Overall the
standard of some of the bands who have struggled in the past at this level has certainly improved remarkably and all congratulations must go to the players and their conductors. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience in spite of not having a sand bucket.

Ron Grice,
Newcastle. AUSTRALIA

The Nationals

A real Balls-Up!

Surely the best way to commemorate Eric Ball's music at the Albert Hall in October would be to play as much of it as possible.

How to do that? Easy! By having an Eric Ball own choice test piece competition instead of the usual set test piece system. Just imagine it - Kensington Concerto, Festival Music, Journey Into Freedom, Resurgam, The Undaunted, High Peak - played by the country's best bands in one day under contest conditions - what a tribute to him!

All pieces would be well within technical capabilities, but the bands' musicianship would be tested to the full. All pieces would be tuneful and the variation would assure a fullish house even during the 'unfashionable' bands' performances.

A winning formula I think - but unfortunately we are left with the dismal prospect of Brass Banding's two main contests of the year revolving around partial arrangements of hackneyed, albeit popular, classics.

I hesitate to say it, but that really is a Balls-up!

Dafydd Jones

Shame on you -( in capital letters as well)

I FEEL I HAVE TO COMMENT ON THE CURRENT NATIONALS TEST PIECE HAVING PLAYED AND RECORDED THE ENIGMA VARIATIONS WITH DESFORD AND SPENT A WEEK WITH THE NYBB OF GB UNDER ERIC BALL HIMSELF.

IT IS DISRESPECTFUL THAT THE POWERS THAT BE HAVE DECIDED TO DESICRATE A WONDERFUL TRANSCRIPTION OF A PIECE OF MUSICAL HISTORY. I BELEIVE BANDS SHOULD PLAY THE WHOLE WORK AND NOT JUST BITS AND BOBS THAT THE PANEL HAVE CHOSEN TO FIT IN TIME SCALE REQUIRED. SHAME ON YOU.

brian winter

And what about the Open?

Do I detect a note of inconsistency in your editorial policy?

Following your (totally justified, in my opinion) lambasting of the decision to use a cut-down arrangement of a piece of classical music for the national finals, we now have the announcement of a cut-down arrangement of a piece of classical music for the Open. I would have expected your coverage to include an equally strongly-worded denunciation of this decision, which only serves to further reduce the standing of the Brass Band movement in serious musical circles?

Gareth J. Green
MD The Egham Band

Richard Evans - Dictator Maximus

A Young Convert

In this article richard evans says as his first point :

1. Bring back the satisfaction, enjoyment and spirit to banding.

Well in my opinion Richard Evans does this in every way shape and form I am proud to say that I am lucky enough to have worked with him twice over the past 3 years. I play for the Wigan Youth Band and every two years we hold a residencial course and on the 2 of these i have attented Richard has worked with us both times!

Not only profesionally does he make the band sound at it's best he does it socially! he took the time to talk to us outside of rehearsal hours and commented on the playing. The way he conducts the band makes you want to play your best and working with such a talented person is a great oppertunity. His personality lifts the band and takes the bands to it's limits!! I think Richard Evans should be Dictator Maximus (if it was up to me)

Lauren (13)
wigan youth band / Golborne

And someone a bit older..........


Admiral sentiments and 5 decrees most people will agree with. However it would seem very much easier said than done. Nevertheless for things to change there needs to be the will and the drive to make it happen.

The only way forward is to look to the YOUTH once again something most people will agree with and although it may seem like you're p***ing into the wind, local bands with committed leadership need to be out there in the community promoting the band. And yes it is always the same faces trying to make things happen but that's how the cookie crumbles. Suffice to say one would assume that most successful grass roots bands are having to do this any case to keep the dream alive.

So can the people at 4BR who are now unwttingly or on purpose setting themselves up as champions of the banding movement round up a possie to implement the ideals of Richard Evans and take us forward.

John Bray

A Bee in the Bonnet

I'm sure that you subscribe to this list. However, if you don't, here's another 'hobby horse' issue that you might consider for your site.

Neil Varley's remark is astonishing given that:

1) there are probably more brass recordings now than at any time in history (although Tim Mutum would be the one to ask), and

2) the quality of the top band recordings - both playing and recording quality - has seldom been better

YBS, Dyke, Faireys, Fodens, Grimey and Cory have a right to be thoroughly aggrieved by Radio 3's attitude as they've all produced excellent recordings for at least the last 25 years! To be honest though, I've virtually stopped going to brass concerts and listening to Listen to the Band as so much of what is played is re-arranged orchestral and pop repertoire. Bands, especially the very best bands, should be playing original repertoire, or at least quality arrangements (e.g. Snell, Freeh, Richards) as much as possible or
else bands will never ever have an audience beyond the players themselves.

Oh, and I have a bee in my bonnet about the Open and National test pieces this year for the self same reason. If I want to listen to The Planets or Enigma then I'd far rather seek out a quality orchestra rather than listen to truncated versions played by bands! If the organisers were seriously
worried about the 'lack of tunes' why not set A Moorside Suite - a fantastic BRASS BAND composition - and to honour Eric Ball's centenary, why not one of his classic original brass band compositions? Journey Into Freedom,
Festival Music, High Peak, ...?

Gordon Simpson

The Phil Lawrence interview

Disappointed from Letchworth

I read the article on Phil Lawrence with great interest and was very disappointed that no mention was made of the piece he has written for the centenary of Letchworth Garden City. This has been commissioned by Letchworth Garden City Band of which I am a member.

He complains about mediocre PR but I would have thought that if he was having a piece premiered in THIS country (as opposed to lots of his other works which seem to be going abroad) he would at least mention it in the article. I'm sure he will want other bands to know about it.

A. Walsh



Great interview

Well done on a great interview with Phil Lawrence. I was one of the people he contacted to get a concert organised for his music to be performed. I had no luck getting it done but congrats must go to Andy Snell and Waitakere. I wish I could be in New Zealand next week. I spoke to a friend of mine at Easter who plays with Waitakere and he said the band was enjoying working on Phils' music.

Phil sent me a score of Gregoritas and I think it is fantastic,bloody hard but wonderful music. I can't wait to hear a recording of it. Keep up the good work Phil and don't be discouraged by the faceless ones.

Chris Gregg

Mornington Youth and Citizens' Band
Melbourne, Australia

Love this!

Love this from Phil Lawrence, it needs to be on again:

"Adjudicators: Please look at those bands that fall between numbers 6 to 12 on the day, it's life or death for those who have made it there for that one day and sacrificed all to get there, they are in awe of that magical day and what it means for them to be there, the placing needs to be dead right, not a shuffled compromise. These bands in this sector deserve absolute accuracy for their "Reason D'etre". It's easy to place the first 5 (he says boldly) - get 6 to 12 right!"

Rob J

Welsh Champions?

Is this another example of the smoke filled rooms....appalling. Straight to the conspiracy theory...who will this benefit... the ones who do not attend the round of contests.

Lyndon Price

Not a first in Scotland either - twice

Re: Scott Morrice's posting about two bands from the same organisation qualifying in the same year. Despite both bands qualifying on numerous occasions, Whitburn Band and Whitburn Burgh Junior Band both qualified in the same year for the first time in 1997. I'm sure there are other
earlier examples in history, but this is two years ahead of Kirkie's achievement.

Kenny Crookston

Not for YBS as well!

Sorry to have to tell you there is a mistake in your comments page. We maybe have not had many 1st's lately but we can say we got a 1st with YBS. UDI-Aberdeen City Band were the 1st band to have YBS perform in Scotland.
They have done 2 concerts in Aberdeen one in 2000 and another the year after. Both concerts were great and I am sure St Ronans will enjoy them.

Moira Ross
PS The site is still a brilliant one...keep up the good work

Banding in the 21st Century

A personal view..........

I read with interest, the thoughts on the brass band world on the Comments Page. However we, as a movement, never seem to address the true points of bringing the movement in to the 21st century.

I'm sure these following thoughts may cause us, as a movement, to attend local association meeting to discuss and improve the movement to a professional standard. I would be very happy if every band all attended association meeting as without the backing of bands the associations just will not work. If anyone agrees that things need to change please be happy to forward this on to your local association for discussion at their executive meeting and then a general meeting.

1. Adjudication

Closed adjudication for all contests where the results are determined by musical performance only. For example, the local annual contest and the regional championships to be closed adjudication and prizes awarded on the musical
performance of each band. This should end the call of contest fixing or favouritism. This should be the same for all contesting.

If such a contest has an award for entertainment value, this should be by a separate open judge who will award prizes in conjunction with the wishes of the contest organisers. All bands should be made aware of the exact criteria for this
award and the judge are asked to fully justify the outcome of the results.

2. Multiple Adjudicators

All major contests, possibly including local associations annual contests should have at least two adjudicators placed apart from each other in separate boxes/areas. At the end of the contest the scores are to be added together and an aggregate score given. In the event of a tie during a March/Test piece? or Hymn/Test piece? then the first award should go to the highest placing of the test piece. In the event of a tie at, for example, the area championships and national finals would need to be looked in to and some possible direction from the ABBA could be sought.

3. Grading

Grading should be based on more than a one-off contest ever year:

Firstly it would stop the disadvantage of a good band being graded on one bad day contest performance. Vice versa it should prevent a poorer band being promoted
because of a good day in the contest field.

Secondly it would make bands enter more than the one contest a year. How can a band be promoted as a contesting band on one performance a year over a three-year period? It would not happen in any other type of competition on a national basis.

The obvious choice is to make an association annual contest a grading competition. This should then encourage bands to support their local associations and also give
a fairer view of their contesting standards.

To throw the cat amongst the pigeons, I believe that the area championships, a local annual contest, and Pontins should be grading contests and band should attend
at least two of the three contests. For those bands that enter all three, the best two marks should be taken in to consideration.

(To be more radical maybe all contests should be grading competitions with all bands having register at least 4 entries and an average mark of their results being the points they carry over the 3-year grading system. However, I think this far too a radical move for a movement that still seems, on some occasions, to be in the dark ages)

We need to do something to bring the movement in to the 21st century and bringing to an end the one man in a box judging a group of bands in one grading competition per year? must be a step on the right ladder to bring the movement, bands and players to a professional standard of entertainment

and finally a local issue....

4. West of England Area Championships

It is desperate that the dates for all area championships are looked in to. Once again we are the last area to qualify for the national finals and once again the hotel choice is limited. The nearest hotel we found using the suggested hotel finding companies gave us options of an hours drive to Falkirk or Edinburgh. All local hotels have been snapped up by the earlier qualifiers. We had this problem in 2001 when the nearest hotel (term used in the loosest context) was in Burnley.

Luckily, for Dundee, we have made our own enquiries and found a large guesthouse able to take the whole band. However, this does not take away the fact that we are
disadvantaged in the WoE by always being the last area to compete. A far better system would be for each area to rotate the competition dates to allow each regional qualifier a chance to book a decent local hotel close to the contest
venue.

All these thoughts are for discussion and if considered reasonable to be passed on for discussion at a general meeting for the floor to discuss. This is meant to get
bands talking to bands and associations that represent them. Please do not hesitate to contact me if any further discussion or clarification is required

David

Shame at Bugle

Great to see a wide variety of bands in the adult classes at this year's contest, especially in the higher sections.

It's a great shame to see that only one youth band has entered. I'm sure there must be more than one in Cornwall! Perhaps the importance of this local contest is not seen by those that enter the bands? Isn't this is where the youth and junior members of the local banding world should be cutting their contesting 'teeth' and if they're not encouraged to enter, then ultimately the contest itself will eventually die.

Surely, Bugle is one of the great contesting 'traditions' along with the Whit Friday marches? The march down in the morning, the beer tent, pasties, fish and chips for tea followed by a march through your local village, resplendant
with your silver wear! Then off to the band club for post contest celebration.

I'd love to hear why there is only one youth band there? Is the glory not great enough? And if it is a case of where you win, and who you win against, then surely no better opponent than your next door neighbour. Come on band
committees, get your youth bands involved!

Mick Dowrick

What happened to David Bentley?

I'll tell you what.......

I happened to find the article about the Black Dyke Mills band in 1972 with the accompanying photo. I know for sure what happened to David Bentley: he's the top musical director for Royal Caribbean International. I saw him last week. He was MD when I worked on the Vision of the Seas in the ship's orchestra about 5 years ago. He's now on the Rhapsody of the Seas, which does 7-day cruises out of Galveston, Texas. He'll be moving to a new ship, the Serenade, I believe, in a few months time. He plays trombone in the ship's orchestra and oversees all the music on board. His son, Nick, a bassist, has also begun to work on cruiseships from time to time. Dave has been with the company for 16 years. Hope this helps.

Mark Tonelli

Top 10 Flugels eh?

Top ten flugels. Was this compiled by james Chamberlain formerly of Rothwell and Sharlston bands before moving to Whitburn? If so I was your conductor when you played for the Harlequiin brass ensemble! - and Rothwell on tour in Switzerland circa 1996!

I was interested by your top ten flugels of all time list - how could you possibly leave out Steve Clayton, flugel with Imps from 1973 - approx 1989 (correct me of I'm wrong) - possibly the greatest sound ever? By the way Steve is still going strong with Versatile brass and his original band, Knottingley.

John Roberts

Thank You Elland

I would just like to personally thank the Elland band for their kind comments regarding NYBBGB. This course was probably my best ever in 7 courses so far, and the concerts were equally as good! However, I do agree with the comment on how poorly attended they are for what it is! Maybe a top brass band media establishment such as yourselves could do more to publicise these events and the NYBB in general?

I don't know how much information is ever handed to you but to me the band always seems to go almost unnoticed which is disappointing (although I have noticed the principals announcement on 4BR which is much appreciated!). I just think this establishment should be given more attention considering what it is and who is and has been associated with it over the 50 years.

Nick Walkley

Rankings - What about the lower sections?

Just like to say that this web site is excellent. I would like to make a suggestion. I think it would be good to encorporate rankings from the lower section bands. The majority of bandsmen and ladies who view the web site are probably from lower sections, and would like to see there band on the site, and be able to look at there progress.
Keep up the good work

Tom Rogers



And the Criteria?

Please could you confirm the criteria to get into the 4BarsRest rankings. We are a 1st section band, promoted to Championship Section from Jan 2004. we have only
appeared outside of the top 3 prizes in all competitions once since May 2000.

We assume only results are taken from Championship Bands, is this so? Are there any tables for lower section bands??

David Pilkington

4BR Reply: Please check out the rankings area of the site which gives a full explaination

Mickey Mouse Contests

I think the inclusion of every 'mickey mouse' contest held throughout the UK and elsewhere is making the ranking tables a bit of a joke. Unless a band happens to be one of the big boys then it seems to me the only way of getting 'points' is to enter as many contests as possible no matter what the quality and field.

Maybe our band could set up the 'Woodfalls Open' held every month on a Thursday night starting at 20:00. I am sure after a year we will accumulate quite a lot of 'worthwhile' points and shoot up the tables. But then perhaps we shall stick with the quality contests and be content with competing with the top bands, even though they will more than likely wipe the floor with us on every occasion.

Karl Pettit
SWT Woodfalls

Promenade?

Mike Eb bass player" is looking for a recording of Promenade and Dave Payn of East London Brass correctly mentioned that it was recorded by Solna Brass. It is on Grosvenor GRS1031 from 1974.
I have this record, and it is included in my huge collection shown on the web site: -
www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk/quinn.htm

Keith Quinn
Sunderland



Another recording....

Regarding your correspondent 'Mike Eb Bass Player' and his request for a recording of Promenade by Frank Bryce.
I have a 1972 recording on the Fanfare label (Pride of the North - 2928 011) by Besses o' th' Barn Band conducted by the composer. (I can't vouch for the quality or condition of the recording though.) I quote "This (piece) was used as a second section test piece in 1971 for the Wills sponsored contests and as Frank says "If the inclusion of the tune 'She's a lassie from Lancashire' should puzzle the listener, it is because the original idea behind this composition was a stroll along Wigan Pier"." If Mike would like to mail me I am sure that I can sort something out for him.

Dave Timmins

And another....

Could you please pass on my e-mail address (jwowen@aol.com) to Mike the Eb bass player who is trying to locate recordings of the above.

Jim Owen
Rossendale

Can you help?

I wonder if anyone can help?!! I have an A Level student who is playing Cornucopia by Bram Wiggins for her performance exam. She has to research the composer and is struggleing to find any information. I did wonder
whether there had been an article on Bram Wiggins on your site but can't seem to find anything. Do you know where I could find any information if you don't have an article in the pipeline??

Nicola Anne Rathburn
nicola_rathburn@fastmail.fm

And what about?

Has anyone out there got a set of Brass Band parts of the Overture By Kela Bela called French Comedy.

Following intensive enquiries is seems that this overture is now out of print. It would be great if I could get hold of a copy of this work. e.mail:- baz1@b24hen.freeserve.co.uk

Barry Blaesdale

Sorry state of engraving

Love the site--it's almost like being back in the UK, at least as far as banding is concerned.

My comment deals with the generally sorry state of music
engraving/copying in much brass band music.Our brass choir plays a lot of music from the bigger publishing houses
in the UK. In many cases, the pieces are hand-copied, and other pieces (mis)use programs such as Finale and Sibelius.

Parts are often crammed onto one page--one piece we just played (a medley by a well-known arranger)had over 25 lines of music on one normal-size page, with divisi parts (euph I & II)to boot. Many parts are assembled with little thought to proper spacing, both in terms of number of lines of music to a page and in terms of note spacing
within individual measures. Additionally, page turnsand other page layout issues seem to be given little or no thought by many publishers.

I am wondering whether this low state of copying (I won't refer to it as 'engraving' also bothers band members in the UK. While it is true that pieces that will be heavily rehearsed can *perhaps* get away with a lower standard of copying, much of what I see is simply bad beyond expectation, especially given the prices one pays for music. We often
perform these pieces on 1-2 rehearsals, and much time is wasted sorting out what's on the parts.

Perhaps I am overly sensitive about the issue because I do a fair amount of work with Finale, but I am wondering if the poor state of printed music is also bothersome to you in the UK?!?

Jim Williams

Complicated Relegation

I agree with your bottom four relegation idea, however, running the system over two years is simply too complicated. It would be fairer and more transparent to implement this system on a yearly basis, which incidentally would be more akin to your West Ham analogy.

The important thing though is going to be consistency - whichever method is chosen should be kept in place for the foreseeable future. We've had enough of the goal posts being moved.

I would like to know, however, what happens to those bands who are relegated from the senior trophy section? Do they go into some virtual blackhole or the banding version of the Vauxhall conference?- How do they get back?

My only other point is if this system applies to the grand shield etc., why does it not apply to the British Open?

John Roberts

Problems with the Regionals

Although I have some sympathy with your position that the current allocation of bands to the 5 sections hasn't achieved the supposed intentions of those who planned the change from 4 sections, I suspect that the problem with the Regional Championships is rooted much deeper than that and is caused primarily by the fact that nearly 600 bands seem to want to take part. This creates a number of problems of which I'd highlight two.

Firstly we should be trying to get the maximum number of bands per contest down to at most 15 and preferably 12 - in any section - for fairness, for the health of adjudicators and for the pleasure of competitors. Playing last of 20+ bands almost spoils the day out and turns the event into a trial of stamina. Secondly the organization into regions is, in all respects other than geographical, arbitrary and unbalanced in numbers and quality.

Unfortunately I can't see any significant improvement in the current situation without addressing these two problems, and since the regional concept, including regional representation at the National Finals, is heavily embedded in our culture any change is really just a tinkering.

However, since you ask, and I notice that you are wise enough not to make any detailed suggestions yourselves, the primary requirement for any change is for the BFBB to take charge of the whole shooting match: there are too many vested interests at the moment. Once that's in place, the regions can be "ordered" to limit the size of the sections and to apply the same procedures for promotion and relegation (which also need to be changed). Since it is impractical to define the exact number of bands per section, an optimum and a range would be set - for example, a preferred maximum of 12 but no lower than 10 and no higher than 14.

Given that this would leave a number of 4th section bands out in the cold and since the size of the "excess" will vary widely, the regions could be left to organize their own method by which excess bands can pre-qualify or qualify for the next year's regional 4th section contests. One option would be the running of a 5th section (with no implied National Final).

Bands currently in a region with an excess of bands would be allowed to enter a different region if it has no excess, regardless of their grading, but once there would not be allowed to change region again (until the new region also had an excess). Application to change would of course require a year's notice and the new promotion and relegation rules would need to take account of the number of bands in the section in order to maintain the preferred maximum for the following year.

Some hope!
Peter Hartley
Bournemouth Concert Brass

^back to top