Comments ~ 2003: January (Part 1)

Comments from January 2003 - Part 1

Following our comments on Prague

Prague and other issues

I feel that your comments (Prague) are somewhat off the mark here, although I have to agree with the sentiment behind your argument. That is to say, that a lack of cohesion is one of the real issues. We have always suffered from apathy throughout the grass root band populus.

However, my understanding is that this test piece was selected some time ago, that is to say, not recently. Some of the panel would also have had to disqualify themselves from the selection process due to them conducting championship section bands. I believe that if this had not been the case, Prague would NOT have been selected.

I count myself lucky to be conducting in the 1st section this year, as I have to admit I would not have enjoyed the work up, and getting amateur musicians to give up their valuable time to come to the band room for Prague could prove a challenge.

I also think that you need to be careful at condemning the BBC as they have been very supportive of the brass band world in regularly commissioning new music for us. Also the BFBB have obtained arts funding to allow them to exist and for the same purpose. So if you want a professional administration, then who will pay for it.

Perhaps we should also be aware that the sponsors and owners of the National Championships, (Boosey & Hawkes) have played their part, but due to their company being up for sale, may not be able to continue into the future. Perhaps they could sell their rights to a more cash rich company, like Yamaha for example? Or is this too controversial. At least we may see some funding and therefore we may see money spent on commissioning??

As usual, I believe money is the issue.

As for the "licences" - Do not be fooled this is just another indirect tax, thanks Mr Brown.

Lastly - Before I comment (re cheats) can I say these are my own personal views and I do not speak for my association. I must admit to being a bit disappointed at your representative not turning up for the ABBA AGM as you did last year. You are therefore probably making comments based on hear say.

I was there and I have to say that I agreed with many of the sentiments in John's (Roberts) impassioned debate. He is a friend and colleague and I was impressed with his conviction. Overall, I believe his argument was however unconvincing and rather impractical and flawed. For example I agreed with the argument that players are getting lazy and if we swap parts too much it means that they never really try.

As to the open adjudication debate, the adjudicator normally has his eyes in the score and in focussed on his assessment, so he may not always spot the defaulter. Also there is no rule against this practice and it is NOT the adjudicator's job to enforce the competition rules, that is the duty of the contest organiser. Anyway, I keep trying to encourage people not to reduce the making of music to the level of a sport. The conductor should have the freedom to convince us that what he does adds to the music. If it doesn't he normally suffers the consequences. I would suggest that especially at a time when getting band rooms full is not easy and many bands going on stage short of some players, a little leeway and understanding is required. I can recall no occasion when I thought a bit of part swapping actually was the one single factor that led to a band winning or losing a contest. It is common practice to re-write orchestral parts, so what's the problem.

It was interesting that Peter Grahams comments did not feature heavily in your summation, as he agreed with the great body of opinion in the room and outside in the wider world, that is to say, he was willing to be convinced if the conductor decided to change things to make it easier to play. The issue is a technical one really, providing the "voicing" of the chord is unaltered and the sound quality is enhanced, what is the problem. For example, giving a high 1st Baritone part to a Tenor Horn might make sense providing the notes speak at the same pitch and in the same octave. Likewise Sop / Cornet.

Finally, don't forget that SOME composers have little experience of writing for brass bands, and some like to experiment and ask the impossible! It is the conductors duty to deliver his band a good performance as he is their servant, and he has a responsibility to the composer to make his music sound as good as possible.

The use of Mutes when not required is slightly different and it is unlikely to be got away with. Lontano for example could be played on a Mute, rather than open........ I could go on, but you get my drift.

Bucket mutes on Cornet to substitute Flugel will normally be spotted, so that's the risk the conductor takes. I believe that conductors who do this are more likely to have the band placed lower down because the adjudicator assumes that the Flugel couldn't play the part and therefore there is not much point to it. It's rather like the point in or out debate, very rarely does this gimmick add anything to the performance.

Anyway, I would encourage more of this type of debate on the site, as I believe it allows less experienced musicians realise and understand the issues involved.

Well done.

Stephen Tighe

4BR Reply:
Thanks for the input Stephen and lots to chew over. As for "Prague", we don't think we have missed the point at all though. Whether the piece is good, bad or indifferent isn't the central issue. As you say, perhaps the piece was chosen some time ago, but do we have any knowledge of why it was chosen and what criteria was used in making that choice. No – we don't and that's why we got "Prague". It is a selection borne of weakness, indifference and lack of coherent direction from the movement as a whole. As for the BBC, our point was to illustrate that the days of "Reithian" public service ended some time ago – accountants and focus groups now govern output at the Beeb – that's why we are inundated with "Pop Idol" rather than quality musical output.

As for catching the cheats though, our point is that we should finally get our act together and have Open adjudication at our top contests so that this issue can be stamped out. If a judge can't listen and look at the same time and make coherent and intelligent comments on what he hears, then they shouldn't be in the position in the first place.

Is there time to change Prague?

I am a solo cornet player for a championship section band in the top 20, and have played at the highest level and at all the major contests since 1978. I can understand some of you're comments re "Prague" such as music like Spectrum and Fireworks was frowned upon as being too modern when they first appeared, although I find both of those pieces both musical, as opposed to Prague which to me is just a cacophony.

It has no music in it and is awful to practice. Surely the whole purpose of brass banding to most of us is that of entertainment. Sure we all get a thrill out of contesting, especially when you get it right on the day and get a good result, however I fear that more care needs to be taken when choosing test pieces. Yes they need to be demanding, and also need to test the band and its solo players to the limit - that's why it's called a test piece. Above all this they need to be enjoyable to listen to. If this is not the case as was seen clearly at the Open with Maunsell Forts we will have empty halls to play to. This is bad both for the organisers financially and also for the performers who do not wish to perform to an empty hall. We are quite happy in our little brass band world playing our traditional brass band music, yes we do also like to play modern music such as masquerade, which incidentally is both difficult but above all very musical and melodic. Lets have more of that and less of this ,"this is modern and different so it must be good " rubbish. Is it too late incidentally to change the test piece?

Gordon McGeorge
Ever Ready Band

4BR Reply:
We don't think somehow that the powers that be (whoever they are?) would now change the piece, although it wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened – remember that "Les Preludes" was a late substitute at the British Open a couple of years ago. We respect your opinion on the piece Gordon, but just because you don't like it as a piece of music isn't a good enough reason for it to be dropped. If we had adopted this as a criteria we would never have had "Spectrum" or "Fireworks" (disliked by one Mortimer that he wouldn't even enter the contest!)

In favour of Prague

I have hesitated to enter into the discussions regarding Prague, knowing I would be in a minority, having greatly enjoyed Maunsell Forts, Revelation and Songs of BL in the past. I hasten to add that this is as a listener, rather than a player, and I know of a lot of music that is not so rewarding for the players, including a lot of so-called traditional pieces. I would go along with the 4barsrest feeling that more deliberations are needed when choosing test pieces, and I like Howard Snell's suggestion of a rolling sequence. True, you may find audiences dropping off from time to time, and disgruntled bandsmen having the odd moan, but surely it is vital that, as a movement, we should be ready to embrace new writers with different ideas.

I well recall hearing the original broadcast of Prague, together with many of the other new pieces premiered as part of the BBC Festivals of Brass, and thinking that here is a writer who has something special to say. Maybe I am unusual in having such eclectic tastes, but should we really be limited to the sort of writing that was popular in the orchestral world back in the middle of the last century? Both rhythmically and harmonically there have
been so many varied developments, which are rarely found in the world of the brass band.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a lot of the earlier music, and would hate to see it overlooked, indeed in the area of concert repertoire things have tended to go to the opposite extreme, with bands often only playing music arranged or composed in the last year or so, but there is a danger of becoming becalmed in a backwater. Having some experience of the world of wind bands as well as brass, it seems that they are far more ready to embrace and encourage new writers, and that the new music quickly becomes established and popular, right down to youth and schools level - indeed, I often feel that our young players are much more ready to adapt to so-called difficult music that more established groups shy away from. I only hope that we are able to have a reasonable, level-headed debate on the subject, without it degenerating into a slanging match as is so often the case.

Peter Bale

4BR Reply:
Thanks Peter for some very sane and well thought out comments. As we have said, whether "Prague" is good or bad is a personal matter but it is nice to know that certain people can see behind the shallowness of certain arguments. Howard Snell's idea of a "rolling list" has a lot of sense (the British Open Golf Championships decide on venues up to ten years ahead and it doesn't seem to upset anyone does it) and it may be time for such an idea to become the norm.

Not quite in favour!

I must say that I have enjoyed reading your editorial on Prague, It's bloody awful, and having played the Eb bass part, I think that Ms Bingham has insulted James Gourlay by dedicating it to him. I've been to Prague a couple of times and I cannot say it invokes any memories of the place for me.

S. Sheppard

4BR Reply:
We would ask readers to refer back to the last comments we made above………

Following our comments on "Cheats"

A Third Umpire to catch the cheats?

Open adjudication is definitely not a solution to the 'cheating' problem. The biggest problem that comes to mind with open adjudication is the possibility of non-musical visual factors effecting the adjuration of a performance. Under open adjudication, I'm sure that at least one band that failed to win will feel cheated. This is purely human nature - people will find any excuse they can to deny failure. If a big name band won, people might say that they won because of their reputation. If a small band won then people might credit it to the 'underdog factor'. Inevitably, adjudicators place themselves at risk of being criticised for knowing who they are adjudicating on. The magnitude of the problem caused by open adjudication will be far greater than the problems caused by 'cheating'.

One way to crack down on cheating is to have a 'Third Umpire' type figure to visually adjudicate on the bands, while the normal closed adjudicators concentrate on judging the music. The visual adjudicators will give out negative marks to bands who are caught "cheating" and will not make any musical decisions regarding a performance. The magnitude of the negative marks will be listed before the contest (like penalties for traffic
offences) to avoid subjectivity.

For example:
Off-loading Parts to other instruments = 5 points for each offence
Unmarked usage of mutes to make quiet passages easier = 5 points for each
offence
Solo Sharing = 1 point for each offence

The decisions of the adjudicators are final (it has always been that way). No appeals, if you get caught cheating but didn't, tough. Remember, the tougher it is, the more it discourages bands from cheating. Also, cheaters will be caught because bands usually only have to cheat in exposed parts and it will be easy for an adjudicator to figure out which parts to concentrate on before the contest.

At the end of the day, an unfair system is fair if it applies to everyone.

Jeffrey Ma
Sydney, Australia

4BR Reply:
Interesting concept Jeffrey. Seeing the problems you are having in Australia with umpires at the cricket at the moment, we can't quite see the attraction of a third judge. What we think is that having Open adjudication would solve the problem as it would be up to the judge to penalise bands that he sees "cheating" if they so wish. If they don't feel what a band does effects the overall musical picture then they won't take a few points off them. Simple as that. Put the decision with the judge and trust them. That is what it is all about – trust.

Composers deserve a bit more respect!

I echo Peter Graham's thoughts recently stated in the band press that, as a composer, I believe bands' MDs have every right to swap parts around if this results in a better performance. That has to be a good thing all round, for the music and for the contest performances.

But it is one thing to give, say, a second cornet part to the rep player and quite another to mute an open passage.

I was quite astonished that the members of ABBA seemed unable to agree that this practice should be discouraged. Without encouraging Vic Reeves to get his handbag out, I do think that we composers deserve a little more respect than that. I've noticed an increasing trend in major contests for MDs to 'use' the test piece as a vehicle for their band when it should be the other way round, shouldn't it?

The one conductor who consistently aims to present an accurate and respectful picture of the test piece is, in my opinion, James Gourlay. His contest record is not outstanding, so whom are we to blame for this? I believe the fault lies in bands' lack of trust of the judging panel. This is misplaced and Derek Broadbent's recent efforts to bring the parties together should be applauded and expanded. It's time to talk!

Philip Sparke

4BR Reply:
Thanks Phillip and plenty we agree with you about. If an MD feels he has to "tinker" then so be it, but tinkering is one thing, full scale reconstruction is another. We feel we just need a system (ie Open adjudication) whereby the former is not penalised but the latter is, by the discretion of judges in whom we have the trust to make such a decision.

Consider the problems of the lower sections.

Closed adjudication, if the part was "covered" effectively, may not detect this issue. However, from my lowly view, if we have a lower section band playing, and they were in the unfortunate position of not having a full compliment of instrumentalists present, would it not be prudent for the MD to have that part played by a similar instrument, and fulfil the composers score, rather than leave a void?

I would also ask the question, if a band (lower section again), was to not have percussion on stage, does that band drop points for leaving out the parts? - hypothetically of course! - and would the adjudicator in an "open" situation automatically put that band in a lower scoring position, to penalise them? - I hope not, the band world, from the 2nd section downwards is without so many players, who can only scratch and borrow to enter contests.

Local and national associations must realise that bands must take a proactive view and be allowed interpret the music for themselves. The adjudicator surely must listen and mark on technical issues such as sound, balance, tuning and interpretation. Lets not move away from amateur music making, lets make it easier for all to come back to banding without barriers.

Steve Shawcross.

4BR Reply:
Thanks Steve and plenty of excellent points. We have been talking about the top level of banding and it has been wrong of us to forget that bands in the lower sections may encounter the same problems of ""swapping" but for totally different reasons. Lack of personnel and inexperienced players could mean that the MD may have no other choice than to swap or even leave out parts. That is why we ask that the judge be in the open to see what is going on (especially at Regional contests) and so can tell if the absence of the "true" part is due to a lack of players especially. Then some sympathetic consideration can surely be given.

What about Conductors to judge?

Why not do away with appointed judges, and become self-governing. By doing this we can eliminate 'cheating', we can also take away the fear of drawing number 1, and we can also have a pre-draw. How? Let the people who have studied, and heard, the set work, judge.

These people are 'THE CONDUCTORS' let them sit in the open, they can then decide if anyone is 'cheating' or otherwise. They certainly know what they are looking for in the music, and band number 1 is not at a disadvantage. It could work like this. It is a condition of acceptance at each major contest, that the conductors on the day will adjudicate, they will present themselves to the contest controller, who will then take them into the auditorium, band drawn number 1 comes onto the platform, their conductor then joins them from the auditorium, performs, then returns to his seat in the auditorium, and so on until all the bands have played.

After each band has played, the contest controller collects the marks (remarks) and takes them to the office to be collated. Obviously there can be anomalies, but all these marks will be published, and everyone will be able to see who did what. Just to re-cap. Band number 1 no disadvantage, a pre-draw is a distinct advantage, everyone knows who the judges are before the contest, the judges know the piece, because by their own admission, judges at last years Open, had NOT heard the piece before band number 1 played!!!

Peter Roberts

4BR Reply:
Thanks Peter. Can't quite see all our MD's agreeing to this though. What with their ego's (essential things to become a great MD), the ability to know that they alone are infallible and their in built defence mechanism against any criticism we think things could end in disaster before the second band took the stage! We would definitely pay to watch though!!

Keep ‘em Blind!

I really hope the world of brass players which read this site don't take seriously your recent comments about open adjudication. You suggest in your latest editorial that by letting adjudicators SEE the bands playing, they might penalise bands which are "guilty" of part swapping or mute usage "of the type that wasn't what the composer intended or changed the musical picture that was intended". Um, are the composer's musical intentions not measured with the adjudicator's ears?

Adjudicator A: Yes, I rather liked that band's performance. They all had silver instruments which looked rather spiffy. Adjudicator B: Well, I preferred the previous band because they did everything the composer wanted. Yes, he was conducting them. Adjudicator C: Gosh, I'm sorry I closed my eyes in the slow movement it was so gorgeous, so I can't really comment on the musicalness of it. For all I know, they might have been using tarten mutes - how disrespectful to the composer and audience! Adjudicator A: Well, I have to admit I think that sop was using a mouthpiece with a dangerously shallow cup. Yes it still sounded lovely and perfectly in tune, but it's cheating on those high notes really isn't it boys?!

David Read (the player not the adjudicator)
(playing a trombone with a soon-to-be-outlawed-because-it-ain't-cricket
F valve)

4BR Reply:
Quite a cynical response David!! We are quite sure our friends the judges would have better things to discuss than the shininess of the players instruments. Then again though………..

Following our comments on "Licensing"

Don't be confused

I am grateful to Timothy Paton for his kind words about my arranging work, in the course of his letter about my comments on the Government's new Licensing Bill. In his letter, however, I am afraid to say that he has confused the licensing charges made by the Performing Rights Society, which go to composers and publishers, with the new Government Proposals. These PRS charges have nothing to do with the Licensing Bill, which contains a huge raft of new regulation where there was none before, and consequent new charges that are likely to prevent many events taking place. Read the proposals. It is a jackboot litany reminiscent of other times and places.

For an example outside banding, of how iniquitous the proposals are …. the Three Choirs Festival, held at Gloucester, Hereford and Worcester Cathedrals for over three hundred years now, may well have to be abandoned, according to its Secretary (as reported in the Press this week), because the extra charges cannot be afforded. £1500 was quoted as the likely EXTRA charge, PER CONCERT! If this kind of major event has to be abandoned, is not something very wrong? We all know that politicians don't like ever to admit they are wrong, but is this not cultural vandalism against the people that they are supposed to serve and represent? Either the politicians are incompetent at framing laws, or they mean it? It has to be one or the other. There is no third way in this matter.

In my original article, I mentioned a lot of small banding events going to the wall. In ‘big' banding terms also there will be an effect. I gave concerts at the Three Choirs Festival (with Desford) many years ago, and I am sure that Black Dyke has also performed for it in the past. The chance of that kind of prestige event being heard in future will, of course, go.

On an entirely pleasanter note, I had the great pleasure, many years ago, to know Rowland Jones, the former euphonium player and professional singer, who was recently the subject of a very enjoyable and interesting article by Chris Helmes. Rowland was a staff soloist at the Sadlers Wells Opera Company (now the English National Opera), and a fine one he was too, lyrical, and tonally never forced. As a person, he was a true gentleman of the old style. The last time I saw him was after I left Sadlers Wells for the LSO, when he was singing on a session with the Orchestra. On that occasion he had a very warm reunion with Willy Lang, a fellow member at Dyke. They both obviously held each other in the highest regard, and had a great time swopping memories.

Howard Snell

4BR Reply:
Thank you Howard once more. It shows how bad the legislation is when events such as "The Three Choirs Festival" comes under threat, whilst it is important to note the difference between the proposed legislation and the PRS (A scheme that brass bands know and care little about – how many bands fill in the forms to ensure the composer gets a few bob after a concert they have played?) Rowland Jones however seems to be a man who's memory brings a smile back on everyone's face, and that is a measure of how fine a gentleman and musician he was.

Sign your Name across your Claim!

Why is it that we are asked to provide our name and e-mail address along with any letters that we want publishing, yet concert, contest and CD reviews are posted without the reviewer's name? I for one would be interested to know who these "mystery" experts are!!!

Jon Davies
Williams Fairey Band

4BR Reply:
All reviews come from the 4BR team and all our details are to be found in the credits section of the site John. We are not "experts" and don't profess to be either, and the buck at 4BR stops at the door of Iwan Fox and Anthony Banwell - it's our site and so we take all the responsibility for printing all reviews of concerts, contests, CD's and everything else we think is worthy of going onto the site. Scary isn't it!!

Harrogate is Harrogreat!

Re the idea to locate the Lower Section in Harrogate - I think this is a great idea and would echo the comments made in the article. We were lucky enough to qualify for the Nationals when they were last in Harrogate (unfortunately a series of disasters prevented any kind of result) and I thought that the venue was superb as well as being set in a lovely part of the country. The biggest boon is by far the fact that no band will have to travel the length of the country to get there and is therefore attractive to Scotland, England and Wales in that respect.

Lesley MacSween

4BR Reply:
The news as far as we know Lesley is that the venue has only been confirmed for one year as yet. We agree that Harrogate is a fine (if rather expensive for shopping!) venue, but please don't forget that the BFBB were allegedly in the process of confirming a long term agreement with Symphony Hall in Birmingham before they were cruelly dropped by Boosey and Hawkes. Now wouldn't have that made an even better venue?

I agree wholeheartedly with the pieces on the list- good choices. One slight omission with regard to use of Volcano - Dyke played Volcano as their own choice in the 1985 European - and of course won.
It's still a piece to test a good band.

Andy Gray

4BR Reply:
Thanks for letting us know Andy. A brave choice indeed and one that showed that you can play something a bit different and still come out on tops. Wouldn't it be nice oif we heard a bit more of "Volcano" though in the coming year.

Do you know something?

Great article on the test pieces due for revival lads, but is there something you aren't telling us? The rumours are abounding that "Festival Music" has already been chosen for the National Finals and that we could be getting more of the same – Vinter, Vaughan Williams and more Ball for the Regionals next year as well as Pontins. Are you letting the cat out of the bag in advance, and if so, well done!

Simon Jones

4BR Reply:
We are afraid we don't know the choices for any of the contests you mentioned Simon, but with all the furore going on over the set works for this year we think at least a couple of our choices may well be heard of later this year. The Regionals CD insert by Paul Hindmarsh clearly states that the Finals at both London and Dundee will feature Eric Ball's work, so look out for possibly "Festival Music" and "Kensington Concerto" and a few more, whilst we think it would be great for Vinter to come back to the forefront once more. Great music.

Message to Dobcross.

Out of 192 bands in the 4BR ranking system, 4 of which are dead but remain there to keep the calculations correct, they (Dobcross) are 193rd. Keep up the good form and they will surely be much higher, but until then they will have to feature in the prize lists more often than they have done during the past few years.

J. Casey

4BR Reply:
Now they know what to do then.

Thanks for putting details of our concerts on the site which is always a good read. Keep up the good work. Ref the Lower Section Finals next year does not the date ring any bells with you. Second Saturday in September? British Open? or are they moving to the first or third Saturday. If not it looks like a real clash of dates to me.

Tim Mutum

4BR Reply:
Interesting point Tim. No news as yet though from the organisers, but if this is the case, then it strikes us that someone at the new organisation hasn't been doing their homework, or that they don't really think it an issue. On both counts, it just sums things up the way in which we seem to be going – no thought, no planning, no direction – no audiences.

German Stand Banners anyone?

I like to ask you something. I am the band manager from St. Stephan Brass Band Hambrug, Germany, and we got a new sponsor. Jippi. But now we like to get standbanners for Advertision. Where we can get a cheap one? Have you an idea? Greeting from Germany and thank you for your nice homepage!

Matthias

4BR Reply:
Try and contact some of our traders in the business such as Roger Handley Ltd who can be contacted on 01132 457008 or Fax 01132 457009 (you will have to add the UK telephone code) or TOR designs at the same address or DJ Promotions on 01298 74737. There are others, but both these have websites as well so have a look and see if they can help.

Hi. I just happened upon your site while researching. Great job. Can you help me? I am at my wits end. I am looking for an out of print recording by James Burke and am hoping that someone hopefully has resurrected this album to CD. I believe the name of the album is" Horn of Plenty" originally produced by Decca. It features James Burke and all who ever have admired great horn players owe it to themselves to hear Mr. Burke play. Any help locating this album/cd will be most appreciated.

Mark

4BR Reply:
Anyone know anything. If you do then let us know.

Name that Judge

I notice in your review of the recent ABBA meeting that everyone agreed to the early publication of the names of adjudicators officiating at contests. Last year we (North of England) were the only area that didn't know the name of the adjudicator until the day of the contest.

I'm sure this will be resolved by March but what about our league contest on February 2nd?

Could we also have the judges' thoughts on what they will be looking for in each test piece? This doesn't need to be an essay but would be especially useful to lower section conductors.

Graham
(Conductor, Cockerton band)

4BR Reply:
We don't know why yours was the only Regional Area Contest that didn't know in advance, but it seems a pretty ludicrous decision to keep it secret. What the reasoning behind such a decision is beyond us – does anyone benefit by knowing, especially if the information's released to all competing bands. As for your up coming contest, why not ring up the organisers and ask – or is that being a bit too naïve??

What about Paul the North Wales "Star"

My name is Nathan Williams-I'm one of the percussionists for Beaumaris Band. Just couldn't help noticing that Paul Hughes is not part of this "all star" band. You say you chose people on their form-Don't think I can remember him faulting as of yet and he is an excellent leader of his cornet section with all the other players having the utmost respect for him. To be honest I don't know sod all about brass bands but Music is all I know and I've heard lots of these "top players" and Paul is definitely up there. Just wondering why he wasn't chosen.

Nathan Williams

4BR Reply:
We are sure Paul came into consideration for both the Welsh band and the "All Star Band" Nathan. It is nice to know that a fine player has the support and respect of his fellow players though - that is much more important than having your name on any "star" list.

Thanks for the delivery of the CDs to the far flung reaches of La Palma once more. The reviews were spot on, makes the whole selection process a lot easier to get what you're looking for rather than ending up lumbered with crap because you only had a CD cover to go on...

Colin Davenport

4BR Reply:
Thanks Colin and nice to know there is a piece of land in a far flung place that is forever full of brass band music!

Read Right for B&R

Personally I would have chosen Peter Read for the top position as I feel his musicality is far more conducive to a band such as B & R. I think AM (Allan Morrison) is a very talented player but his style is quite hard and 'trumpetty' so may not blend for my ears. My only wish is that Nick Payne could have stayed as second man because I feel he is a highly talented player and strong in that position.

Pamela Lumb

4BR Reply:
Peter is indeed a very fine player and one who we know has been very loyal to the bands he has played with over the years. What the B&R appointment dies show us though is that there isn't a great deal of "new" talent available for the top bands to get their hands on.

There seems to be something of a player merrygo round every year between the top bands in Yorkshire and Lancashire, yet young talent is rarely given the chance to shine. There have been a few exceptions (Stuart Lingard at YBS for example) but when someone gets the sack from the Principal Cornet slot, there seems to be a very short lineup of the usual suspects to replace them. What's wrong with long term development eh? We seem to be getting more and more like football every day.

4BR Pay per View?

Thanks to yourself and the team at 4 bars rest who have kept me updated with breaking news throughout 2002. I am one of the many band enthusiasts who log on almost every day.

A point I'd like to make is follows. I have no idea how much money you make on the site that you run - considerable time is obviously being expended with I guess very little recompense for the enormous effort being put in. Have you thought about making 4 bars rest a paysite? I know it's a revolutionary step forward but I for one would be willing to pay a modest yearly subscription (say 50 pounds per year??) providing the amount of news and articles increased - something that I feel sure would be possible if the funds coming into the site paid for some full-time journalism.

I want news as it breaks and not to wait some 5-6 days for my weekly British Bandsman to come through the letterbox - I'm sure there most be other bandsman like myself who feel the same. Please - I'm not knocking the British Bandsman, they do a cracking job, but we are going through a revolution in the way we now communicate and that for me is not waiting for news that is only available once a week. On-line information is here to stay - you might be surprised that people might be willing to support a venture as described above if you were brave enough to take the leap forward. Your view would be appreciated and please keep up the good work,

Michael Britton (City of Bristol Band)

4BR Reply:
It's not a route we'll be going down Michael, even though it would possibly make us a nice few bob. We do have ideas to generate income for the site, but asking people to pay to just view what we have to offer is something we don't quite feel right about. We enjoy what we do (even though it is bloody hard work!) and we hope to be able to expand the site to include even more features during 2003. Thanks for the compliments though.

A 4BR Comment on Prague?

Why are you choosing not to comment on the choice of "Prague" for the Championship Areas?

Like it or not, you have now established yourselves as the "most read" brass band publication in the world. This brings about a certain responsibility.........

Prague is not a suitable choice for the Championship Area test piece. Is there anyone out there who thinks that it is???? Get a grip before we go through this self destruct excercise........

Now is a time that you need to "Get off the fence" GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps bet you don't

Peter Bansford
Manchester

4BR Reply:
Sorry to disappoint you Peter but we will be making our views known on the thorny old subject of "Prague" in the very near future. We have enjoyed the contributions from everyone and when we think the time has come, we will put our two penneth worth in as well!

I was a little surprised at the nature of Howard Snell's attack on reforms of the licensing laws. I have a lot of respect for all that he has done for the brass band, in fact, his outstanding arrangements were one of the reasons why I became a 'convert'. Some of the things he said disturbed my sensibilities!

It is my understanding that a music license is not a tax, it is paid, (in the case of live music), to the Performing Rights Society. When I was MD to the North Cheshire Concert Band, we performed an annual gala concert at the Parr Hall in Warrington. We had to submit full details of our programme to the management, so that they could pass it on to the PRS, (to whom they paid their license fee), so that relevant composers and arrangers could receive their royalties.

Amanda Jarret pointed out that many of the things mentioned in Howard Snell's letter already paid licences. I have directed the music for many amateur musical societies. In every case, the society pays a license for permission to perform the usical. Of course, this is not a tax, it is for royalties and administration.

When I was teaching, I was made aware on several occasions that schools were supposed to have a music license for public performance, but it was never enforced as it was seen as a valuable educational tool in the community.

I wholeheartedly agree that amateur live music making should be encouraged, and it should not have to be paid for. As Amanda says, however, let's get the facts right before we start sounding off like a bunch of ill-informed protestors. Finally Howard, some of your income comes from your fine arrangements, and so it should. I wonder how many times a 'Howard Snell' arrangement has been performed, and you never saw a penny for the hard work that made it possible.

Timothy Paton

4BR Reply:
We can see where you are coming from Timothy, but can't really agree with you. Your points are well made, but what's the difference between Income Tax and National Insurance Contributions? Nothing – both are taxes, but one has a different name that's all. It's the same with licenses – even when the proceeds go to someone other than the Government. The problem with this piece of legislation is that it is badly thought out. Nobody we know minds paying for something that is good and benefits people. This is neither and that's why we are against it.

Bravo Mr Snell!

Having read Mr Snell's excellent article concerning the Government's (STUPID) plan to license all live performance, I would like to bring to your attention the online petition that I feel should not go unnoticed, as it already has nearly 20,000 undersigned.

I am sure we all feel the same about this issue, and we, as musicians should fight this idiotic proposal which, (if implemented) would not only damage our movement as a whole, but would also have an enormously detrimental effect on all musicians, and all live performance.

Please sign the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/2inabar/petition.html

J.Smith, Pennine Brass

4BR Reply:
We think a number of people have already done this, but it won't hurt to publish it again.

Boorish 4BR

As a founder member of First City Brass and a past member and former Chairman of the John Laing Hendon Band, I would also add to Jeremy Wise's sentiments regarding boorish sniping from the 4BR editorial team.

It is with uncustomary modesty that Jeremy fails to mention that he was the driving force and energy behind bringing Hendon from the ashes in the early 1990's. Unfortunately, the wheels came off that cart when I left the band to poison the world of science at a research centre in Loughborough.

Perhaps, then, a victory of optimism over experience that Jeremy should endeavour create The Brass Band Monster in the South founding, and funding, FCB. There were auspicious beginnings, and as I recall no players brought in through debenture or concubinage. I will leave it for History to judge whether once again the loss of my services as 2nd baritone, as the temptation of tampering with employment rights beckoned me to North Africa, was the start of the slippery slope.

Banding at anything like a high standard in South East England is a rare and sporadic opportunity. Don't knock those who put their time and effort into making these opportunities. I would challenge others to have as much success.

Ken Lynch
Sfax, Central Tunisia

4BR Reply:
Thanks Ken, and nice to know we are getting brass band coverage to Tunisia. Are there any bands out there? As for our comments though. It was well reported in the banding press that there was some disquiet about players when First City was formed and we looked back at the cuttings from the time that mentioned it also.

True or not, it was a point of debate and it was even mentioned in the Brass Band World report of the first Regional contest the band attended. We didn't knock the formation of First City at all and Jeremy Wise also replied to say that he felt that the reports at the time were incorrect. First City made a real stab at competing at the highest level, but as Jeremy himself commented, it was players attitudes that in fact were the bands downfall - and that is the greatest pity of all.

Leyland Concern

Firstly may I congratulate you on an excellent and informative site. I was introduced to your site by a young English trombone player last year when he came and stayed with myself and my wife when the Young Ambassadors Brass Band Of Great Britain were on their US and Canada tour in 2001. The trombone player is in fact Neil Samuel who as I'm sure you know is the principal trombone of the Leyland Band. The reason I am writing to you is to express my concern at the way you seemed to be using Neil as a scape goat for Leylands result at the National Brass Band Championships Of Great Britain.

I had wanted to attend this particular contest for a number of years and when Neil stayed in our home he convinced me that it was an excellent days music making and that I should make the effort to attend. So after discussing it with my wife I decided to attend the 2002 contest. I didn't tell Neil I would be in attendance before the contest as I thought I would surprise him. Well, after hearing him play so wonderfully in the contest performance I made my way to the stage door to congratulate him.

Imagine my surprise when I saw Neil for the first time and he confided in me that he was in agony after biting his tongue when he had collapsed earlier in the morning. The way he played on that stage was as well as anyone else that tackled that incredibly difficult solo, and I'm sure I'm not on my own in thinking this. At the age of only 20 years old Neil has a great future and my opinion is that we should surely be encouraging the players of tomorrow and not casting doubt over their ability to perform on the big stages. All that's left to say is, keep up the good work on an excellent site, and I can't wait to see all the guys from Young Ambassadors when they return this Summer.

Joe Fitzgibbon
Guelph, Ontario.

Leyland Concern 2

After reading your end of term reports recently, I think it was quite unfair the manner in which Leyland's result at the Nationals was blamed on their 'ill trombone sibling'. Having heard this band in London, there was no reason to suggest, from the playing of their principal trombone, that this was the reason for the result. I didn't know until after the results that, in fact, he was unwell so it certainly didn't come across in his performance.

Lucy Robertson

4BR Reply:
Thanks Joe and Lucy for giving us the details. There was no way in which we intended to cause any offence to any individual player in any of our "End of Term Reports" but with regard to Leyland at the Nationals it was a situation that very few people knew little about and it made Neils performance all the more brave and worthy.

Having health scares so close to a contest performance however can heighten anxiety for all concerned. To imply though that we made it into a scapegoat argument is unfair and incorrect and was nothing of the sort. If we caused offence we apologise in full, but we believe we did not. We are also sure Neil (who we have heard on many occassions) will be a great player for the band for many years to come.

I am writing with reference to Chris Helmes' recollections of Rowland Jones - "The Prince of The Euphonium" and requests for more memories of Rowland. Following my younger days in the Salvation Army I started my contesting career with the Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen Band as Principal Euphonium. Rowland was a legend within the old bandroom at the Mount Pleasant Inn and I was constantly reminded that I was sitting where the great man himself had.

One evening Rowland called in "The Mount" during a break in his busy schedule on what happened to be a rehearsal night. Having to play in front of Rowland was terrifying enough but then the conductor suggested that I play "La Belle Americaine" as it was one of Rowland's favourite solos!

Paralysed with fear the performance was not exactly a "Bobby Dazzler"! However, the great man came and spoke to me afterwards and was full of encouragement rather than criticism at my inexperience - a true gentleman - and it is no surprise that he is so fondly remembered after all these years.

Rob Burnett

4BR Reply:
Thanks Rob. It seems his kind words paid off as we know you went on to make a bit of a name for yourself in Wales as one of the best euphonium players we have ever produced. As for you ever being a young man though! How long ago are we actually talking about here? Rowland Jones is a name we knew little about until Chris Helme took the trouble to do a fine article for us, and the response has been great. Great players should never ever be forgotten.

Go for it Pete!

Can't help with the dates for Peter Roberts but I also would love him to complete a Solo album and urge anybody that might be able to help do this to come forward!

Steven Symonds
Barnard Castle

4BR Reply:
Any millionaire out there with a few spare quid, please contact 4BR and we'll try and get things going!

Don't blame your Tool!

The letters in your 'comments' section regarding mouthpieces reminded me of a lesson I learned back in the 80's. During a coach journey to a gig with my band I became involved in one of those 'best mouthpiece' debates with several others. After we'd all had our say about the various merits of this 'rim' and that 'cup' etc., etc., I decided to ask the fellow in the seat behind. His name was Tom Gomersall. Ex Irish Guards and Yorkshire 'Imps' and one of the finest musicians I've ever had the pleasure to listen to. Those of you who can remember him will know he produced a wonderful huge sound on euphonium, both in the upper and lower range and at all dynamics..... and this was on an Imperial, before the days of the big bore sovereigns.

So I asked the question; "What mouthpiece do you use Tom?" "I don't know", came the reply. Whereupon he rummaged through his pockets produced the item in question and handed it to me. "Came with the instrument" he said. I suspect we'd all be better employed discussing 'practice techniques' rather than mouthpieces. Workmen and their tools.....?

Roger Pearcey.

4BR Reply:
Great story Roger, but one that reminds us of one we heard the other day concerning the great ex New Zealand rugby captain, Colin "Pine Tree" Meads. Meads, who once broke an Australian scrum half's leg with his bare hands would feast on a mountain of near raw steak and eggs about an hour before kickoff, and was disgusted at the news that the current All Blacks now ate nothing more than pasta and fresh fruit before going into battle. Meads cornered the female dietician of the current squad and blasted, "I never ate any of that muck and I played 64 times for New Zealand" to which the tiny woman retorted, "Ah. Well you'll never know how good a player you could have been then!"

Well done the Youth of Cornwall

I was visiting family over the Xmas period in Cornwall. I decided to go along to a concert which was put on by the Cornwall youth brass band conducted by Dr Roy Newsome. I was amazed how talented the youth players in Cornwall actually were. Everything from Sop down to double B (not forgetting percussion) showed fine playing. I was also very pleased with the standard of their principal trom player who gave a brave performance of rhapsody. The concert was based on the music of Gordon Langford who also attended the concert and conducted a couple of the fine performances. Looks like the future for banding is set at very high standards.

Best regards
Tim James

4BR Reply:
We just put up details of seemed to be an excellent concert Tim on the site, but we would also say that there seems to be something of a renaissance in Youth banding in Cornwall, and that can only mean a bright future for banding there. Bands from all over the county seem to be making a mark for themselves, and we note that there is a strong lineup from Cornwall at the forthcoming Youth Championships in Manchester in February. Well done to everyone.

Dronfield Alcoholic not Anonymous

I understand from one of my listeners that you were enquiring about the origins of the Dronfield Band under a heading "Alcoholic Incentive". I have not been able to find this on your website but can certainly help with information and photographs of the early days.

I formed the band in 1971. The first meeting of trustees was on May 26th, and I continued as player and conductor until December 1973. In July 1996 I was invited to compere a 25th anniversary concert in Dronfield Civic Hall.

Should you require further information, please reply to the above e-mail address or to iancottier@manxradio.com or by telephone to 01624 834237.

Ian Cottier
"Time for Brass" www.manxradio.com

4BR Reply:
We remember it well Ian and thanks for letting us know something about the band. The article we did goes right back to the very start of 4BR when we asked about strange band names and someone came up with Dronfield. Don't ask us why, but it had something to do with alcohol!

Give it to me then!

Your recent reply concerning errors and mis prints in published works read, "A good idea Graham, although we would hope that it would not have to come to that in this day and age. Why not pay someone with good compositional knowledge to go over the arts and score with the composer or publishers
before it finally goes into print."

If the publishers would like to send me the computer file for any piece which my band is playing, I will personally go through it and inform them (the publishers), as well as all other bands in the contest, of any errors - free of charge. In fact, as it will save me many frustrating hours, I'll do 2 sections for nothing.

Graham Catherall
Conductor, Cockerton band.

4BR Reply:
We think you may now be inundated with requests!

Thinking about the Youth

I was thinking which is a rare event with me,
Maybe yes people are moaning about the lower sections etc and there is more to banding than Black Dyke and Grimethorpe but no one thinks about the youth side do they???? Maybe some sort of review on a contest and really if someone went they would be surprised how good they all are?? Not meaning to sound horrible or anything because I'm not!!!!

Thanx
Becky Torrance

4BR Reply:
Quite right Becky, and we hope to be able to give more coverage to Youth events in 2003. We have just given the full details of the forthcoming Youth Championships in Manchester in February and there will be a full concert report of the recent Greater Gwent Youth Band concert directed by Nicholas Childs on the site as well. If anyone wants to send us some stuff about their Youth Band, like Rochdale a few weeks ago then we will certainly put it up on the site.

Greater Gwent so Great!

I understand you visited the GGYBB during their annual course at Bryn Glas House Newport.

Would like to read your review of their concert on Sunday 5th are they as good as I think they are??. Our daughter was playing therefore do not apologise for being biased!

There can't be many youth bands who have the opportunity to work with "The Brothers" (Dr Nicholas & Dr Bob) . And the extremely talented Roger Webster! As rookies to banding we find 4 bars rest a valuable resource.

S Havard

4BR Reply:
We hope to have a review up on the site in the next few days.

Where is Dobcross?

I was just wondering if the Dobcross Silver band are anywhere near the top 100. It is just for my own interest, but I would like to see how much work we need to do to break into your rankings list. How good a result do we need to get at the areas to see this famous name back into the frame? Cheers chaps and keep up the good work.

Alan Hodgkinson

4BR Reply:
Be patient and keep up the good winning ways and you will soon appear in the rankings Alan. Things will certainly have a shake up come the Regional Championships so just wait a little longer. In the meantime though, there is a comprehensive explanation attached to the current rankings.

Unfortunately our band has lost the parts for the following:

Boosey and Hawkes Brass Band Journal nr. 875 "La Catalena" af Alec Howell
1. Trombone

B og H B.B.J nr 800
"Swan Lake/Hungarian Dance" af Tchaikovsky arr. D. Wright
Eb-cornet, 2. Trombone

B og H B.B.J. nr 832
"Judex/Hosanna in Excelsis
af Gounod/Arr. F. Wright
1. Baritone, Euphonium

B og H B.B.J. nr 617
"In a monastery garden/M.fl
af A.W. Ketelby/Arr. J. Ord Hume
2. Horn, Bass Trombone

Can anyone help us?

Martin Thorup
Eb-Bass
Thisted FDF Brass Band
Denmark
Tubagod@ofir.dk

Martin Thorup Tubagod@ofir.dk
www.tubaportalen.dk -mere end bare en portal

4BR Reply:
If anyone can help then contact Martin direct.

GUS 4 found

Thank you very much for publishing my request regarding the GUS Vinter Quartet recording. I have now followed up Keith's response and hope to be the proud owner of this LP very shortly.

As a regular vistor to your site I believe you are providing a unique and very high quality service to the banding world. I often get the news first from you before BBW and the BB have had a chance to publish it. I also appreciate the entertaining messages I get with my CD orders.

Please keep it up!
Dave Wicks

4BR Reply:
Thanks Dave and well done for being able to get your hands on the old recording. We understand though that Polyphonic recordings have a stock of LP's of brass band music for years gone by that are in pristine condition and available for sale. These include some of the great recordings from yesteryear, so if anyone wishes to find out about some hidden tresaures then contact them direct on 020 8459 6194

Troms to the Fore!

I saw the letter from Eric Welburn wishing to obtain a recording of "Trombones To The Fore". If he contacts me I will send him a recording with my compliments.

Keith Quinn
KEITH@quinnk37.freeserve.co.uk
www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk/quinn.htm

Dunlap??

Does anyone out there have or know where to get a set of the march 'Dunlap Commandery' by RB Hall ? if so I would be very interested.

James McCabe

4BR Reply:
If anyone can help, let us know.

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