Comments ~ 2007: December

Wrong choices - for the 4BR Band to the 4th Section Regional test pieces. Not everyone is happy this festive season it sems...

A Fourth Section test piece?

With reference to the comments from Jim Owen in November under the above heading. 

My band got out the 2008 Area test piece (Four City Symphony) last week for a pre-Christmas run through prior to devoting 12 weeks of our lives to rehearsal time.

Oh dear. What a miserable time we are going to have! Parts copied across whole sections means that you could turn up 'on the day' with one player rather than three (possibly a winning strategy in the fourth section where tuning and intonation can be more of an issue). 

There are only 16 crochets for the trombone section in the whole of the second movement. Looking on the bright side, there are 16 crochets each. And some of the notes are actually different. We checked whilst we were counting all those bars rest.

It certainly isn't taxing. I suspect that there are going to be a lot of conductors and committees around the country trying to enthuse their players to turn up and concentrate, especially if they travel a distance to rehearsals. 

Still, if you only need one player instead of three perhaps that won't be a problem...

In summary: Nice tune, but, as reflected in post rehearsal discussion, it's not a test piece of the calibre required to inspire either players or conductors. It has just not got any Sparke....

John Avery
Marske Brass 

Politically correct choices

Interesting reading with the 4BR Awards and Band of the Year.

Nice to see Grimethorpe and Allan Withington getting the main awards and I must agree with the choice of Hans Gansch. I was privileged to hear him at the Europeans and at Brass in Concert and I must say he was as fantastic as you said he was!

As for the Band of the Year - some interesting choices too. I know it must be difficult to pick just 25 players, but were you being a bit ‘politically correct’ with some of the players from certain parts of the brass band world?

Great site and keep up the good work

Peter Collins 

What about the brilliant players?

Who on earth made the choices for the 4BR Band of the Year? 

Some of the players are no way the best players in their position. Have you got something against the players of Black Dyke or Cory? These are brilliant players and miles better than some of the players you felt deserved to be in your band.

I wonder if you know what you are on about. 

Lindsay Patterson 

Thanks

Thank you for the very prompt despatch of the CD I ordered from you.  It arrived the Sat. before Christmas that far outdid my expectations. Brilliant service from you, as ever.
 
Rosie Guest

Wrong man 

Having just looked at your time team comments for December, and where is Vaughan Morris on your photograph?

The four men pictured are Sir Arthur Bliss, Frank Wright, Dr Denis Wright and Eric Ball.

John Clay 

4BR Reply:
Well spotted John - We'll wil find an appropriate one as soon as possible. 

The lottery of number 1

I think your countdown to Christmas is a great idea. 

I was particularly taken with your analysis of success from the number 1 draw. I personally have never thought that it matters in contests with up to ten bands in the section. Any more than that then perhaps it can be a bit of a lottery.

Indeed my own band have enjoyed some success in the past off number 1 draws. As to when the last major contest was won off a number 1 draw; Whitburn won their first Scottish Open title in 2006 off number 1, a title they retained a few weeks ago, although this time off number 7.

Keep up the good work guys and Merry Christmas and a great New Year to you all.

John Martin
Lochgelly Band 

A couple we missed though...

You have missed some...

Eurobrass contest (Netherlands) - de Bazuin won playing first. Dutch National Championships - de waldsang won playing first.

Could've known that...

Anne Groothof
Netherlands 

Grand and Open in same year?

Really enjoying the countdown this year, some great little gems. 

But I'm sure I'll not be the only person to point out that it'd be difficult to compete in both the Grand Shield an British Open (as far as I'm aware). Still, at least I have a target to aim for, just need to find the rest of the band to join me! 

Tim Benson

4BR Reply:
It is possible in fact Jim as the Grand Shield winners go through to the British Open each year. 

The reviewer responds
 
I should like to respond to Ian Dickie's comments regarding the review of Bellshill's cd Christmas Praise: As he rightly points out, it is incumbent on a reviewer to give an honest review, with the proviso that it can only ever be one person's individual response to the recording in question.  

The review aims to give a flavour of the recording, considering such areas as programme content, the playing of the band and the overall presentation, and one is also aware that those who read the review may be influenced in their purchases by what is written.
 
As a Salvationist bandsman myself, I am fully aware of the nature of banding within the Salvation Army, and the commitment involved in both rehearsing for the band's day to day ministry and also the effort which is put into recording projects to further the mission of the band and the spread of the Gospel through music.  

With the particular recording in question, I simply felt that the end result was a little inconsistent, and did not really do the band justice.
 
Ian Dickie also refers to other recordings produced by the band, and if he cares to read the review of Musical Aspects he will note that I found this a far more attractive prospect.
 
Peter Bale 

Anyone help to find Men of Brass?

I have a copy of Men of Brass on 12" London LP(LL 1456)  that I love but has gotten pretty scratched up do you know how I might obtain another copy of this?

Russ 

Anyone help to find my great grandfather?
 
My Grandfather was Victor Wilkinson- taking the name of his mother Harriet Wilkinson, as she made no mention of the Father on the Birth Certificate, born 1889. The fact that the only "history" I have of this is verbal, makes it extremely difficult.

The story was that this cornet player named Briggs died when Victor was a small boy. He was taken to the funeral, and told my father he could remember wondering why they were burying the nice shiny Cornet too.

Harriet had married another man by then, but I would love to know more about all this, as you can imagine.
 
I do hope this might be of help.

 Karen (Wilkinson) Kingswell

4BR Reply:
We've a had a look through our records (Crystal Palce etc) but can't find anything as yet.  Try Black Dyke direct as they have a huge amount of almost priceless information from the bands history to delve into.

Brighouse & Hotspur 

Enjoying the Christmas Countdown lads, although the football comparisons raised a few eyebrows in my household!

As a proud Manchester United fan but also a Brighouse & Rastrick supporter I was a bit shocked that you compared us to Tottenham Hotspur! Still, can’t complain – you had the rest just about right and sharply observed too.

Craig Watkins 

Play to the audience

Phil Chalk's letter "Play to the Audience" and Sandy Smith's reply. A  lot of valid comments there that I find myself agreeing with. 

Entertainments contests like Brass in Concert have become very "formulaic" with most bands following a similar formula to that which emerged during the days of the Granada Contest in the 70s and 80s.
 
Not surprising really given the need to present as varied and "entertaining" a programme as possible within such a limited time period.  Have to agree Sandy  - perhaps bands have come to a dead end with that particular game plan and maybe it is time to rethink the "formula".  But to what?
 
As Phil identifies, in fact the problem goes much deeper than just entertainment "contests" and on to the general concert platform. The questions arise: What is entertainment, and to whom? 

Phil comments on the average age he has observed at brass band concerts, but I should add that 50 or even 60 is by no means old.  Most of the people you'd see going to a Staus Quo, Fairport Convention or Led Zeppelin concert would be in their 50s  because that was the music they were listening to in their "youth".  The 60 somethings would have been weaned on the Beatles and the Rolling Stones,  so let's not kid ourselves that we're talking about the Glen Miller brigade  -  they'd be in their 80s now.
 
In terms of musical development, and I believe that is what the debate started by Phil and Sandy is all about  - what really holds the brass band back in terms of development as a musical genre is the stranglehold or limitations that contesting imposes.  Virtually all brass band music is written for 25 brass players of pre-determined instrumentation and percussion. 

Contrast that with orchestral music which can be written for virtually any combination of "orchestral" instruments which a composer chooses to write for.  That's not meant in any way as a criticism, merely an observation.  

But that's the way it is and that's the way it will stay, because that's what the vast majority of brass band people want  -  for the same reason that football and cricket teams consist of eleven player per side.
 
Steve Walkley 

Prescription entertainment

The “Prescription Entertainment” in the December editorial hits a special spot for me and I have certainly voiced my opinion about the so-called entertainment factor. 

On one hand you have MD’s choosing a programme that is safe and what the audience want and then you have the Composers and Arrangers trying to move things forward.

This aspect of the audience is something that fascinates me because I, as a composer am always writing for them and the one thing I have learnt more than anything is just how ‘new’ you can be without alienating the audience. One-liner statements like “but it’s an audience pleaser” are cringe-worthy to me and just demonstrates how little they really know their audience.

Programming is an art and I applaud the MD’s who get it right; giving the audience a belter of a night while doing something new and inspiring.

So, what constitutes good programming? Well If I knew, I’m sure I’d be rich but perhaps we need to be playing newer music, for example, how much concert music is in your pads that dates no earlier than 2005 and better yet, how much do you play that’s been released this year?

While playing newer much doesn’t necessarily mean that the programme is always going to be good, I believe it puts you on the right track.

You can go to an Orchestral concert, packed full of oldies (and some young people) and entertainment is not the flavour of the day; it’s about providing great music, played well with lots of passion!

Music is passion. Without it your dead in the water, sure you might win a few contests, but where are we going as an industry? What about in 50 years time, will it still the same old music in every band room?

I guess for a lot of people it isn’t much of an issue, they realise that the music isn’t necessarily all that good half the time and it’s all gone a bit commercial and stale but they get on with it.

But people like myself (composers), MD’s and others’ who live and breath brass bands need to start defending their kingdom and not be too nervous about what audiences will like. I believe a programme with passion, drama and value will always have a more profound effect than a prescribed entertainment programme.

Besides it makes sound business sense to stand out from the crowd and generate some local, regional and perhaps national attraction.

James McFadyen 

Thanks Malcolm
 
Both committee and band would like to send thanks to Malcolm Woods from 4barsrest for the daily blogs he made in connection with the bands trip to Chicago. 

The words printed were not just put down on paper after a few pints each day but had meaning and soul behind them. It was great to have Malcolm with the band and we hope next time the band go on tour the powers to be at the top will allow Malcolm to join with the band again. (Graeme Hall, Promotions Manager)
 
Graeme Hall
Promotions Manager      
Wingates Band

4BR Reply:
We know Malcolm enjoyed the trip - and even the bands too! 

CD Review concern

I an a little concerned with the Peter Bale review of my band -  Bellshill Salvation Army Band CD "Christmas Praise"
 
I fully understand that he has to give an honest review, but does he realise that this band is made up of Salvationists and young people who use this medium of music as part of their service.
 
There are no professional players, graduates etc, just players who have came through the Salvation Army ranks.
 
We have made 3 CD's during the past 3 years and have sold over 3000 to date.  More to the point, these CD's have reached the hearts of millions of people through radio, concerts etc and that's the main reason for the projects.
 
We are not Black Dyke, we are Bellshill.
 
Ian Dickie

Here I am!

I have had a couple of calls to say that it seems that someone wishes to know of my whereabouts. Having read the comments from Mr Bray in last months comments section I think this is the answer!
 
Hello Mr Bray, (and anybody else out there in band land) I think I am the “OLD SOP” as referred to in your November query.
 
My name is Matt Smith and I hale from the Coventry area (WMBBA Country).  I did indeed play with both Amington and Nottingham City Transport Band (amongst others) during their formative “Glory Years”.

I have not played my old soprano for some years now, I became slightly disillusioned with the banding movement after moving to the Coventry area and finding that breaking into the local band scene is not that easy.    
 
I did play for a year or so with Snibston & Desford band,(including during the filming of the Real Brassed Off series.) I also played for a few weeks back at Amington but could not find the heart in me to commit to it after such a lengthy break. (Well done at the Nationals by the way)
 
I must thank you for your kind comments about my ability to produce a nice sound from the soprano. It is always nice to receive a compliment.
 
As for making it big in the band world, Nah!!! 

Happy just letting the sea of life lap at my feet and basking in the glory of hours upon hours of practice, to travel 200 miles to some far off village, and then spend 11 minuets playing a piece to some nice old fellow in the box who was then going to criticise my bands performance to the point of driving youngsters (and sometimes older players) to tears.  
 
Matt Smith
Coventry

Thanks but why no youth coverage? 

Having revisited your coverage of the Scottish Open, I would acknowledge that overall we received a positive write-up - as always, us Scots will try to politely ignore the usual comments about accents / beer / pies and other such stereotypical "Jock jokes" which appear in such reports with monotonous regularity.

As a Perth resident, I was delighted with the way the entire weekend went, both as a competitor and a listener; much credit is due to both the SBBA and the Concert Hall authorities for enabling the smooth running of the event in what is a fantastic venue - "one of the best halls we've ever played in" according to Dr Childs after Black Dyke's 2006 concert there.

Many apologies for the hall being tucked away in a "back street" - the site  was an important trading area of the city long before messrs Marks and Spencer were born and certainly long before late-20th Century town planners came on the scene!

In response to Alan Cameron's comments, the photograph captioned with his band, Newmilns and Galston, is in fact of St Ronan's band - the picture of Newmilns is in the Shield report, captioned as St Ronan's.

As the days have passed though, I must admit to great disappointment that your site has carried no report at all of the excellent Scottish Youth Championships, held on the Sunday after the big boys (and girls) had been out to play.

There was a fantastic atmosphere in the hall all day, as talented youngsters from all over the country enjoyed the opportunity to play in such a venue. The bands were afforded the same facilities as on the Saturday, with the big screen presentations and the services of the charming and informative Alasdair Hutton as compere. Every band brought with them a large number of supporters, ensuring a well filled auditorium with a resultant great atmosphere.

In these times when many within the banding fraternity are emphasising the need to develop and support youth music-making, surely the chance to read about their performances, and even see some pictures of themselves, on a respected internet site could have been possible? 

Let's hope for more exposure in 2009....
 
Brian Roper
Perth

4BR Reply:
Unfortunatley we couldn't provide coverage of the Youth Championships this year withthe resources we had available for the weekend. We will try to ensure that we cover it fully once more in 2008. 

Not so fishy draw!

Don't know where the information came from, but the adjudicator's were only present at the start of the draw for the Scottish Open, not during the draw.
 
Just for clarification
 
Peter Fraser
Events Manager
SBBA 

Sour grapes and 4BR Muck raking... 

I would like to take the opportunity to correct the ill-conceived statement by Lyndsay Kennedy in which she alleges that the adjudicators were present at the Scottish Open draw. 

I must first add that I was not at the draw myself but I have consulted with members of the SBBA Executive who were present and they have told me that the adjudicators were introduced to the delegates and allowed to say some words before being escorted from the room. Nothing wrong with that then, happens at contests up and down the country. A fishy smell, perhaps not, seems more like sour grapes to me.

I am also disappointed as to why 4barsrest themselves did not bother to check out this allegation prior to printing a letter which amounts to nothing more than "muck raking". 

All it would have taken was a simple phone call to either myself or Peter Fraser or any other of the SBBA officials; I'm sure you have most of our numbers in your mobile. The SBBA have received many comments from varied sources all praising the organisation of the Scottish Open Championships. 

The weekend itself was a great success and 4barsrest was generous in its praise of the contest. How unfortunate then that a single dissenting voice has their facts so wrong.

John Martin 

Time for entertainment change

Have to agree with Phil (Chalk) that unless the whole format for the entertainment contest is shaken up then we have hit a bit of a dead end with the typical formulaic programmes.
 
It's a rather depressing thought that all we may currently have to look forward to is a continued shoehorning of "sound alike" pieces into the well worn formula. And yes... I've done a bit of shoehorning in my time as an arranger!
 
It is difficult though trying to break away from this until audiences, and perhaps judges, are prepared to be a bit less narrow in the definition of what is "entertaining".
 
Perhaps increasing the music time limit in BIC would encourage more experimentation, although I believe the problem also lies with trying to increase the range of musical styles that are deemed acceptable as entertainment in this context.
 
Sandy Smith
Holmfirth

Play to the audience....

I think one of the fundamental reasons why the entertainment contest has become somewhat formulaic, lies with the target audience demographic.

When the average age of the audience is 50 and 60 years plus, you have to recognise that they are a pretty conservative bunch and, as such, will possibly only respond to a certain type of programme. 

The same holds true for Brass Band concerts in general- most brass band concerts attract an audience of ageing baby boomers and expect a certain type of fayre.

There is nothing wrong with playing to and knowing your audience - you wouldn't target Hormone Replacement Therapy to twenty something males now would you?

The Fairey Band take their Acid Brass on the road playing at music festivals like V and Love Box, and it goes down a storm; real teenagers and twenty somethings dancing to a brass band playing acid house anthems! 

If we were to play the traditional brass band repertoire at such a venue you could imagine the response.

I believe that unless the whole format for the entertainment contest is shaken up, allowing bands to present their material in their own way, possibly integrating other types of media  and instrumentation, the format is bound to become a little restrictive and samey.

Phil Chalk

1997 Time Team 

What happened with First Brass (Time Team 1997) was they did well for 2 yrs winning the Area at the second attempt and came runners up 2nd the next year.
 
Unfortunatley it couldn't last at trying to keep a band in the London area peforming to that level and the band folded. A short but enjoyable experience.
 
Paul Guilfoyle 

Peter Roberts Hamlet

I played in the Grimethorpe Band from 1979 until 1990 and Peter was  the soprano for all of that time until he was forced into (temporary)  retirement with a hearing  condition, which thankfully he recovered from. 

We had some outstanding players there at that time, but as a  personal note, Peter (along with Bryan Smith) had the true  talent.

Thank you Pete from the bottom of my heart for playing that  can only be dreamed of. You are an outstanding player and more to the  point, performer.

There are always stories, so this is mine. 

When I first went to the  band, we were rehearsing "Fingal's Cave" Overture, Pete was playing  his part from memory while he read the evening paper with his favorite "Hamlet" cigar lit up. I got a bit lost as can happen (often with my sight reading) and Pete looked over to my second cornet part  and played a lower divided part to help me get back on track.

Once I  was with it, it was back to his paper and a puff on his smoke. What a great player!

Tom 

Thanks - but to the right person

Thanks very much for your positive comments in the retrospective (Newmilns & Galston Band).  The band were delighted at the result in Perth and really enjoyed our debut at an excellent contest.  

Just thought that I should set a couple of things straight.  I'm not sure who the photograph is of but it certainly isn't us (the caption says it's our back row)! 
 
Our flugel player on the day who you were praising was actually Hayley Cole.  Cara Sullivan is our usual flugel player but was unfortunately unable to play flugel at this contest.  Fortunately Hayley agreed to help us out and did a great job.  

Thanks to Hayley and Dunaskin Band for agreeing to let her play at such short notice.  Thanks also to Cara who still did a great job for us at the back banging that bass drum to such great effect!
 
Alan Cameron
Newmilns & Galston Band 

Challenging Brass

In answer to Mr Walsh, Challenging Brass (Gilbert Vinter) has been recorded by Fairey, conducted by Major Peter Parkes, on CD "Spectrum", issued by Polyphonic (QPRL 058D) - recorded in January 1993.  

The CD may still be available.
 
Rod Collett
Swindon

And from Canada...

Your correspondent, D. Walsh of Burnley might be interested in ther following information. 'Challenging Brass' by Gilbert Vinter has been recorded on CD as follows:-
 
'High Peak'  Black Dyke Band
Conductor, Roy Newsome
RSRBrass RSRD1001
 
'Spectrum'   Fairey Williams Band
Conductor, Peter Parkes
Polyphonic QPRL058D
 
There is also an old LP with this piece on as follows:-
 
'Golden Hour of Black Dyke Mills'
Conductor, Roy Newsome
Golden Hour GH632
 
Mr. Walsh is welcome to contact me if I can be of any further help.
 
G. Dudley Dickens
Calgary 
Canada.

Joe Oliver remembered

I was privileged to spend much of the 1990’s enjoying my banding in the company of the recently deceased Joe Oliver of South Yorkshire.  My family and I were deeply saddened by the news of Joe’s death and I wanted to share one or two happy memories with other readers.

Joe had a sparkling personality and in addition to being a good cornetist was a patient teacher and a better conductor than he let on to most people. He was apparently the goalkeeper for Accrington Stanley during the 1950’s and when we used to tease him about this, he would say "Hey, you had to be really good to stand there facing that lot."

Joe was a professionally trained Army musician and added a lot of class and ability during his time at Kippax on the front row throughout the period they progressed to the Championship section in 1997. 

I remember at one particular rehearsal I was trying to get certain players to stop sounding so sad and flat while playing a slow quiet passage in a test piece and I was trying to make the point that slow quiet music could be played without such sorrow. Joe picked up his cornet and proceeded to play this little tune in such a happy fashion that none of us have ever forgotten it.

Such was his contribution to the cornet section at Kippax, I awarded him the "player of the year" 1994 from his third man down seat. 

Joe was accepted as a close family friend by the Wardle’s from the very day we met him and we hope that we continue to see his family at banding events.

At the end of rehearsals, or when leaving the pub, amongst the many farewells regularly heard of -"See ya! Cheers! Later! bye for now!" etc. you’d always hear Joe say ………."So long"
 
Keith Wardle
Edwinstowe.
P.S. ……………………So long, Joe. 

Music notes

I am just wondering if there is any possibility of your publishing the full list of all the Items played by the various bands at this years Brass In Concert  Championships.

I was there and enjoyed it immensley and also heard every item played.,but forgot to make notes of the music, including composers and arrangers etc,. I was hoping that you would publish this information, as you have in previous years.

Christy Smith
Drogheda

4BR Reply:
If we can get someone to write it all out for us we will put it up again. 

Female conductors?
 
Thanks for your attention for female conductors. But it starts with the  bands. 

It seems to me that not all bands are open for female players. Do you know why Grimethorpe has no female players?
 
Alko Driest  

4BR Reply:
We think you should ask them not us, although female players as far back as the late 1940's have played with the band on occassions. 

The fishy draw in Scotland 

Just for anyone that didn't know, the adjudicators were present at the Scottish Open draw this year. Just a little bit fishy don't you think?

Lyndsay Kennedy

Upside down.....

Allan Morrison
Thanks
 
down the page to find what they are on about and then have to come back up, don't you think? 
It is most frustrating to read someone's letter replying about something then need to go halfway
go down to the previous letter that was written then scroll up to the next and so on.
page then we could scroll down and read them in chronological order instead of having to first
Any chance you could put your older letters and not the most recent comments at the top of the


4BR Reply:
Thanks Allan. It is difficult, but we think the best way at present is our current format. We are open to changes though in the next few months. 

Well done Gareth

I send my personal congratulations to Gareth Westwood on his piece in comments today (Nov 27th)! 

May all take note of his masterly observations! Especially those choose works for contest. I loved this analogy: “we would still be singing madrigals and motets and William Byrd etc would be top of the charts!”  

Hear, Hear Gareth!
 
Phil Lawrence

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