Comments ~ 2005: March (Part 3 - 21st March onwards)

More from the Regionals, Piers Morgan? American views on judging and putting things into the right context as we come to the end of a hectic March.

Something nice from an old sparring partner

I decided this morning to catch up with the comments section after a week or two. I think it is very gracious and unbiased of you to print complaints and critisms about the lateness or size of some of your retrospectives. You may well be a dot.com and also a company registered in England and Wales as a legal entity, but you are entitled to do what the hell you want within the law - and you do it well without charging s a penny. 
 
So, we buy a PC, we plug it into the net - and there we are - the whole world comes to us, content free of charge. And then some plonker writes in to 4BR like it's his God given right that you must provide for him! I just thought it through again - I still can't believe what I've read from these Dozo's! 
 
Fear not chaps -these are the same ignorant twits who think nothing of parking over the end of your drive. Tell you what - just to be fair, why don't you give those "people" their subscription fees back ;-)
 
Over the last few years, some of my letters have met with a fiery response at 4br - but 'you know what? - I don't think this one will - because the offenders won't have a clue what I'm writing about and other readers will no doubt agree with me.
 
K Wardle
Edwinstowe 

Devolution to strong feeling Regionals?

I don't think 4BR have fully appreciated the strength of feeling surrounding the events of the West of England Area.

The folk down here have not lost their heads - they are simply in a state of shock at the scenes witnessed in Torquay.  The adjudicator of the championship section must be a relieved man that Bryan Hurdley has stolen his thunder.  Because, in my opinion, the result of the top section was one of the most controversial outcomes ever witnessed.

I have nothing for or against any of the bands that played - I simply cannot believe that literally no-one in the audience picked out the two qualifiers.   Surely we should not have a man in the box who holds such a minority view that absolutely no-one agrees with him? (If you think I'm wrong by the way, simply put your hand on your heart, say you were there, and write in to tell us that you agreed with the result.)

The blame does not lie with the adjudicator (he just does his absolute best after all).  No, the fault is with the organisers who persist in selecting  of the bands either.

As for 4BR - please rest assured that, normally, we would be delighted if you did not turn up to sneer at our bands with your barbed remarks.  The trouble is that, on this occasion, you would actually have been useful.  You could have provided a much needed sanity check and told us that we have not gone mad.  Yet.

Congratulations, by the way, on the launch of 4BR - Down Under.  A great idea. When exactly can we expect the launch of 4BR - West of England ?  Or 4BR - Scotland ?

Keep up the good work lads.

Edward Allen

4BR Reply:
Thanks Edward. We apologise again for our poor coverage of the West of England Championships - it wasn't up to the standard expected. As for 4BR devolution to the areas - lets see how the Dominions get on with it first and then we will see about the rest way, way into the future.

The new Piers Morgan?

Thanks for your continued coverage of the areas!

Whereas I was one of the lucky players that actually won an area contest you seem to be inundated with comments from disgruntled bands people! Face facts people, contests are there to be won AND lost! If you haven't won yet played well GET OVER IT! You will always lose more contests then you win and no amount of ranting at the helpful guys of 4BR will help change the results!

If you don't like losing then don't compete! I hate competing but realise it is a necessary evil in our egotistical movement! And why are people moaning at 4BR for their comments on different areas contests? At the end of the day it is only another view and will not affect rankings, results and opinions!

God help Mr. Fox and co. when you are seen by certain people at contests in the future. I will shake your hand and thank you for what you do but I'm afraid you may end up being ousted like Piers Morgan!

The power of the press eh? Just continue what you do for all us realists out there!

Mike Jones

A couple of choices for the Finals

After much conflict over the choice of test pieces for the Regionals, I would like to offer up the debate of choice of test pieces for the 1st to 4th section finals in Harrogate this year.

Yes, we all know the big boys are bound to get something new and controversial for the Albert Hall, so lets see, if we the banding public, can persuade the current 'music panel' to learn a thing or to about choosing test pieces from the current repertoire!

I have listed below my preferred choices and a brief reason as to why!
 
1st Section:  Had it not already have been chosen for the Spring festival in Blackpool then my number one choice would have been Connotations by Edward Gregson - reason: say no more!

Because of this I have gone for Ballet for Band, Joseph Horovitz. Reason: best of his compositions and every flugel players knightmare!
 
2nd Section:  The Plantagenets by Edward Gregson. An earlier and underused composition of this composer but still a decent challenge.
 
3rd Section:  California Legend by Bruce Broughton. I last heard this piece back in 1986 when it was the second section area piece (Lydbrook band won on it!). Lively, rhythmic and a lovely middle section.
 
4th Section: Celtic Suite by Phillip Sparke. What major festival would be complete without a piece by Mr. Sparke. One of his works that suits the lower divisions. 
 
These are my preferences and are in no circumstances meant to try and persuade the powers that be in choosing the finals test pieces........but who knows. After the selections that were put up for the areas's....anything can happen.

Anyone got any other suggestions? 
 
Andrew Brooks

4BR Reply:
If you have, then why not send them into to us.

Putting things into the right context 

Firstly, let me offer my congratulations to Iwan Fox and your team for what, I believe, are a first class web site. I have it saved in my favourites list both at home and in my office and regularly visit for up to date information, comment, contest predictions and reviews.

Whilst I do not always agree with your views (I cannot believe that my playing ever induced a migraine!) I applaud what you are doing - keep up the good work. I look forward to finding out more about the brass band scene down under.
 
The recent adverse criticism concerning the South West Regional report was unfortunate. You were a victim of your own success in so far as people expected the same detailed reporting, despite there being five Regional contests on the same day. Perhaps one day you will achieve this but at present clearly this would require more staff than you currently have.
 
Whilst on the subject of Torquay. I am a Salvationist bandsman of over 40 years experience, with Boscombe Band and including 6 years with The International Staff Band from 1994-2000. I am relatively new to contesting but already I have enough experience to know that the whole process is totally subjective and spurious results have always, and will always, occur. Perhaps the system is not perfect but there is no doubt a process by which this can be changed, no amount of whingeing will change it! I was very disappointed with sixth place at Torquay but this did not stop me, on the following day, telephoning my close friend of many years, and himself a former Boscombe S.A. bandsman who played with the winning band on that day, to offer my heart felt congratulations.
 
My time with Boscombe S.A. band and the ISB afforded me with many wonderful opportunities in many countries world wide but I harbour one ambition, to play at the National Finals at the RAH. My friend will now have that opportunity before me. Despite this in the spirit of good competition I still wish him, and his band, well in October. I hope that they will savour the experience.
 
Perhaps it would be good for us all to reflect on the following in order to put the whole thing in context.
 
On the morning of Torquay I spent some time at the venue visiting trade stands and listening to one or two First Section bands. I met a former colleague from the SWT Woodfalls band who was there supporting his wife who plays in a First Section band. I was astonished that he was there at all as he has only recently been discharged from hospital for the second time following life saving cancer surgery.

He would love to have stayed long enough to hear our sixth placed performance but did not have enough energy, and so left before we played. The immense courage he continues to show, together with such a positive attitude and good humour are extremely humbling.
 
For those bandsmen who have a faith, and I know that is a large number, I ask that you pray for the continued recovery of Pete.
 
Graham Lawrence
Principal Euphonium
SWT Woodfalls 

An American view on adjudication

As a former player in exile here in Las Vegas, I have been reading with some interest the comments on adjudication at contests.

Whether you have open adjudication, three judges, whatever would be the best system? It seems to me (and maybe I'm being naive here) that we may be trying to find a prefect system to adjudicate contests that doesn't exist. The way I look at it, the bandsmen and women are all human, have human frailties like nerves on stage etc etc, why should we assume that adjudicators are immune to this as well?

I have had experiences where during rehearsal prior to contests we were wondering why we should bother going; we go and then win the contest. And of course the reverse of that (great rehearsals and horrible contest day performance).

I also remember at various times playing for example #2 out of an entry of say 20 bands and playing awful but in the time it takes for the other 18 to play (my maths skills fail me but how many pints can you consume in the local pub in the time 18 bands take to play? ) and suddenly your performance ranks amongst the best any brass band has ever played and the adjudicator is an idiot for not having you 10 points clear of the second placed band.

I also remember on one occasion in the middle of the piece there was a short euphonium solo. The euphonium playing was sublime as was the band accompaniment. They were placed in the results. The problem? The euphonium player came in a full 2 beats too early, played as I said sublimely but no-one could stop him. I assume the adjudicators on the day failed to hear this or maybe their scores didn't indicate he was wrong. I know almost everyone in the audience did. I remember thinking at that point " who would want to be an adjudicator...they can't win "

Maybe the system is flawed; maybe there isn't a perfect system to adjudicate contests at the highest level. I'm sure whatever works for the "premier" bands in the country would not necessarily please all other bands. Maybe it's just a symptom of  "let's blame someone else for the fact we didn't win". I guess then the adjudicator is fair game to take the blame. I was guilty of doing that too when I played.

Maybe the answer (hope I do not sound cynical here) in this age of modern technology is to introduce " Instant Audio Replay ". Can you imagine it? Band #18 thinks they should have won but were placed 15th and then they lodge an objection to the result and then have their performance reviewed to have the result overturned .... on second thoughts never mind. If I was still playing...I think it would still be the pub, hope the adjudicator realized our band has played the best performance of any band in history
about five hours ago, and gives us first place by 10 points. If he didn't, he's an idiot and there's is always the next contest where they will get it right.

Alan
Las Vegas, Nevada

A Horn on soprano
 
Before I start, I'd like to point out that I haven't played in brass band since 1997, when I gave up banding to concentrate on a professional playing career of both orchestral and jazz trumpeting.

I have now reverted to the playing for fun stage again and I'm still amazed that even though its 8 or 9 years since I last played in a contest, adjudication problems still haven't been sorted out by those in charge. In fact the last contest I played in, my band won, even though the percussion section played the last 40+ bars one bar out from the rest of the band and finished a bar earlier than them!

I know there has been a lot of discussion recently surrounding the adjudicating standards at some of the regionals recently, in particular in the lower sections. One adjudication specifically has been in much debate when, during his speech to the audience, the adjudicator told the bands that he hadn't taken into account the tempos and other markings on the score with the adjudicating. He also complained about cornet players playing some of the soprano part (even the though band he accused in his notes, hadn't swapped parts).

Surely this kind of thing can't still be allowed by those in charge of the contests.

I know that people say it is just one man's opinion at the end of the day, but all the bands are working toward a good performance of the work and each band's MD will have his own ideas on how the piece should be performed (and so they should - you wouldn't expect Karajan's Berlin Phil playing Mahler to sound like Rattle's Berlin Phil playing Mahler!). But the one stable constant that the conductors, the players and the adjudicator has in a contest situation is the written score. So if a band isn't playing what is clearly marked on the score, the adjudicator should be taking this deeply into consideration and reducing their score.

The bands should be making an interesting performance by following the score and being musical within it's constraints (not by breaking out of it's constraints), and this is where the top bands in the section should come from and gain their top marks.

Adjudicators should be listening for musicality, technique, overall performance quality and making sure that the bands play what is written. Not deciding that they personally don't like the composer's markings and marking bands that follow them down.

In a performance situation, sure the bands and MDs should be able to take liberties, but in a contest situation, everyone should be playing from the same score (so to speak!)

Adrian Horn

The appalling lack of complaints about Mr Read 

I would like to join Phil Adams-Howell (see "Disgusted of Beacontree" below) in his earlier comments about the appalling lack of complaints about the results and standard of adjudication of the recent L&SC 1st section regional finals.  In fact I'd like to complain in the strongest possible terms about the sour-grapes that Mr Read has singularly failed to generate!

I heard two of the winning bands (Staines and Clacton) and, although I might not agree entirely with Messrs McElligott and White's interpretations, they did craft excellent performances from both bands.  And Mr Read certainly did like their interpretations of the music and that's absolutely what counts on the day.  Well done both - I'm sure you'll do us proud at the finals. As will Wantage Silver who had a great day qualifying for the finals in third place.

All in all a very satisfying day's banding thank you very much!!

Dave Scott
Broseley Brass

4BR Reply:
Perhaps the reason is as simple as this: Mr Read is our best adjudicator, and rarely gets it wrong?

Disappointed...

First let me thank you for the time and trouble you take to support brass bands. Also the very quick and efficiant work your team members do to keep everyone up to date with contest results.
 
I am however disappointed that the 4th section regional finals performances [in L & SC] were not covered... I have been waiting with great interest to hear/see comments from you about my bands performance on Saturday, waterbeach brass.
Hopefully next year will be better.
 
J.Utting

4BR Reply:
Sorry to everyone concerned, but due to trying to cover as many of the seperate contests all over the country we didn't have the man power this year to do this one. We haven't got the staff of the Sunday Times you know! Apologies once more, and we will try to make sure that next year with a better spread we will be able to cover every section in the usaual 4BR detail.

Delighted in defeat

My band played in the Second Section at the West of England Regionals. I didn뭪 hear any of the 4th Section, nor Mr Hurdley뭩 comments and am not commenting on that. Like any other person playing I did not actually hear my own band or the others surrounding it. For that reason alone I would not presume I could give a full and reasoned account of the results.

As much time work and effort as most of us put into contests, and some of us put in to playing all year round, they are still just contests. Come Monday you will still have to go to work and life will go on.

If people are honestly and objectively feeling rage at the 멼njustice?of the system then by all means they should try to change it. Merely whining about the situation will not achieve anything. Maybe the opinions of the all of the bands in the West of England should be sought on the matter.

If receiving what you consider to be an unfair result is the worst thing that happened to you recently I think you should consider yourself lucky. Far worse things happen to people everyday.

I wish St Keverne and Woodfalls (the bands who did qualify, St Keverne in sad and difficult circumstances) good luck for the finals. I did hear St Keverne and from the bands I heard (admittedly not many) I thought they were out in front.

Any one who saw the members of St Keverne in the bar after the results could clearly see how much it meant to them and how upset they were about the loss of their conductor. Talking to members of the band I was touched by the sort of respect, spirit and determination it must have taken for them to attend, bearing in mind the contest was the day after Mr Thomas' funeral, and especially considering that most of them appeared to be in their teens or early twenties.

From what I saw they behaved with a level dignity and maturity beyond their years. It's a shame the same can't always be said for the rest of us, in defeat or victory. My compliments go to those who have trained these young people; they do you proud both on and off the stage.

It certainly put a new light on defeat for me; I was delighted for them. To those who may still be fuming about their position or the results in general please consider this, it is only a contest, there will be more and you are not likely to agree with the results at those either whether there is one adjudicator or ten! That's life I뭢 afraid, but maybe we could all try to approach it with a little more humility and a little less ego.

Lecture over!

Guy Evans

Taking issue...

Having read the London & Southern Counties Championship Section review, I must take issue with some of Malcolm Wood's comments.

Firstly though, many congratulations to Redbridge band. They gave a classy and restrained performance of Reinzi and thoroughly deserved their win. They performed better than the rest of the field on the day.

However, to say that "we must acknowledge that as far as the Championship Section goes in London, Redbridge are in a class of their own", that the result was "...a foregone conclusion" and that, "there is a gulf in class" is at best totally innacurate and at worst insulting.

Whilst my point is not to create an Aveley versus Redbridge debate, lets have a look at some of the recent head to heads:

Yeovil 2004: Aveley 2nd, Redbridge 11th. Masters 2004: Aveley 7th, Redbridge 10th. Masters 2003: Aveley 10th, Redbridge 13th. Mineworkers set test: Aveley 6th, Redbridge 8th. Mineworkers entertainment: Redbridge 1st, Aveley 4th. 2005 Regionals: Redbridge 1st, Aveley 2nd.

These results would not suggest a "gulf in class". They would suggest two comparable bands. In fact, if you want to be really childish, the score would be 4-2 to Aveley.

The 4BR rankings would also suggest comparable bands, Aveley ranked 33, Redbridge 46.

With these two bands plus the undoubted talents of the "new" bands Alliance and Zone one, it was unfortunate that you thought that in one sense it was "boring".

It would be great if Mr Wood could think a little and present accurate facts before offering distorted opinions in future.

Andrew Bannister
Soprano Cornet, Aveley & Newham

4BR reply:
We were refering to Redbridge's dominance at the regional championships only.  We apologise if that was not made clear.

Ashamed...

I never thought I'd be ashamed of being a West Country lad!
 
These Welsh brass band fanatics set up this web-site that many of us have enjoyed and hopefully will continue to do. They provided all this info and contest reports at the click of a mouse, but the powers that be compressed the Regionals into just a few weekends and the lads got screwed by their own success.

Or maybe they just over-reached themselves. Or maybe they went commercial and changed direction a bit. And all we can do is throw bricks at them! Shame on us! If you can do better start your own web-site. No - moaning is much easier isn't it.
 
So one adjudicator got it wrong or got out of bed the wrong side. Or you disagreed with a result. Grow up! Get a life! It's called contesting. It's never been any different (I've been doing it for 50 years God help me) and probably never will be. If you don't like it, don't do it.
 
Peter Hartley

4BR Reply:
Thanks Peter. We do acknowledge that we overstreached ourselves this year, and as such were unable to give the type of coverage for some contests as we would have wished and you have come to expect. The West of England in particular was a very poor effort on our behalf as our best laid plans went totally AWOL and we had no back up plan. Apologies for that and all will be put right we hope for next year, whilst we will try on our return t the UK to look at another retrospect on Torquay and its ramifications.

Utterly disappointed

I am utterly disappointed to read the retrospective about the 2nd Section. When you read it, it seems that you couldn't be bothered writing about it - its is a terrible piece of journalism that has been thrown together without thought.

Have you considered the feelings of the bands that you have "slagged off" you never mentioned that they got up there and tried which is a huge thing for them to do, they could have done what so many other bands did and just not turn up!

I would love to know your thought about it in more detail.
 
Lisa Seaton

Unacceptable?

Having read the comments from the people who are situated in the West of England and the 4barsrest response to this (about the racist comments), I as a banding person from the West of England are disappointed by those individuals who have made such racist comments towards 4barsrest, as it is completely unacceptable!!

Even though, and I agree with those people that the retrospective concerning the West of England was not what we would have liked and this retrospective was the only one not done in some comprehensive detail, which could be taken as a sign of disrespect towards us in the West, racist comments are no way to try and solve the issue or put across a viewpoint. 

It is unfortunate that our Area was not visited by 4barsrest or any journalist to do a detailed retrospective, but I feel we must fully appreciate the efforts made by 4barsrest over the Regional period and throughout the year as the service provided by them most of the time is fantastic (how many of us would make the effort to do what they do travelling round the country across the globe??!? very little I guess).

So  although (as already said), the retrospective for the West of England was unacceptable, comments of a racist nature are certainly completely unacceptable and are not beneficial at all !! So please think before you write, as racist occurances such as this are unwanted and put a bad light on an area that one could argue is already neglected.

Michael Jones

Applauding Peggy

I am writing to applaud Peggy Tomlinson and her regional team for the decision taken in respect of 2 adjudicators per section at the recent area competition

I find that I must agree with many of the calls in this month뭩 correspondence re: multiple adjudicators.  It surely now is the time for every region to recognise the fact  that only by providing more than one adjudicator, in a separate box without conferring, will we ever get rid of this ludicrous aspect of subjectivity.  Every thing we need to know about the music is on the music.

Please scrap the pittance of prize money and pay some pro뭩 to come and judge 2 months work.

As an aside stop applauding conductors when they take the stage in contests, uncalled for, not needed and if one was cynical could be construed as a cue to the adjudicator뀉heaven forbid.

Lyndon Price CDM and Bar

Slagged off

This is my first email to your website, having neither the inclination nor the facilities to offer my own comments in the past.

I was intrigued, and somewhat taken aback, to read your comments abot the many hundreds of emails that you had received about the poor coverage of the regionals, and in particular the West of England contest. 

Then I read that you seem to have been hurt by "disrespectful, colourful, personal and, on occasions, racist" comments by some people, and I could not let the opportunity pass. 

On at least two occasions I have been personally "slagged off" - or at least that is what it felt like - by your comments from contests.  The first was when my band won the West of England in Bristol in 2002, when you stated that I had more ticks and twitches than Dustin Hoffman in Rainman!!  The fact that all I was doing was encouraging the new Rep player beside me had, obviously, nothing to do with it!!?  I did not respond to that tasteless remark as I felt that I would be stooping too low.

And then we read your remarks about the "particularly unintelligent" performance of my band (SWT Woodfalls) at Yeovil this year - and lo, you once again offer what I can only say are disrespectful, colourful and personal remarks about my playing once again! 

As a sop player of over 20 years standing - all in the Championship Section - I feel that I am experienced enough to know when I am overblowing - and if I was I would have expected both the conductor and the adjudicator to have said so.  How anyone can then say that Meditation from Thais was loud enough to have induced a migraine, God only knows.

I can only assume that it's OK to offer such comments when it is to one of your "unfancied" bands - and we all know which ones you do - but please, don't start bleating - no Welsh undertones intended - when someone has "a go" at you, for whatever reason.

There, that's off my chest, or at least until Cambridge??

Mark Pye
Woodfalls

Disgusted...

Having played with Becontree Brass in the 1st section regional finals last Saturday in Stevenage, I am disgusted that I cannot find a bad word to say about the adjudicator or the placings (other than his momentary lapse in forgetting to put us first!!!) that he awarded !!

Whats worse , everyone in the hall seemed to agree that the best bands won on the day . Now I frankly feel short-changed ! Where is the room for a post contest rant when the adjudicator does such a good job ? I only hope things change next year and I am not deprived of what appears to be a vital part of the contesting scene.

On a serious note , well done to the winning bands - knock them dead at the nationals !!

Phil Adams-Howell

Chronic ingratitude - typical...

The letters complaining about the perceived poor coverage of some area contests are symptomatic of the chronic ingratitude of the typical brass bandsman.
 
Bandsmen have always expected everything to be provided for them either very cheaply or for free.  The point is well illustrated by your letter writer who implores the BFBB, the regional committees and Besson to "work for us".  Leaving aside Bessons, who have no obligation to "work for us" unless they choose to do so for commercial reasons, why should the BFBB and the regional committees do so?  What committment do you, the individual bandsman, show to those bodies?  Are you personal members?  Do you volunteer your services to them?  Or do you just sit back and wait for it all to come to you?
 
Also, in the past bandsmen have wanted their news on the cheap too.  There are 17,000 registered bandsmen, and an unknown number of unregistered bandsmen from non contesting bands.  Yet the last known circulation of the movements house journal, The British Bandsman, was just 7,000. That's an awful lot of bandsmen 'borrowing' someone elses copy.  We want our news, but we don't want to pay for it, and now we have the internet.
 
Before the internet, the coverage of brass band activities was meagre and confined to the pages of the Bandsman.  Thanks to the internet, and specifically 4BarsRest, that coverage has expanded out of all proportion to bandings importance, and its immediate and free.  But even now some people are still ungrateful. They complain when coverage of an area contest is allegedly substandard. I have even seen elsewhere that some people even believe they have a right to have anything they submit to an online magazine published - even when the internet allows them to publish their views freely elsewhere, on their own website or in brass band related forums.
 
An online magazine should have the same journalistic principles as a paper magazine.  It should exercise proper editorial control and not print anything and everything just because it can.    And if any of your complianants want better coverage of specific events perhaps you should ask them if they would be willing to write the reports themselves.  That at least would show some committment on their part.
 
Keep up the good work chaps!
 
Jim Yelland

What fools...

To quote 4barsrest's retrospective on the Scottish Championships: "Kirky tried too hard to impress musically..."

Impress musically? At a music competition? What the hell were we thinking? What fools we must have looked.

Les Wood
Kirkintilloch Band

Scratching heads...

I feel compelled to drop your excellent web site a comment after the "madness" of the recent areas.
 
I have, during my time at Salford University entered competitive banding at the highest level with very good success. I have returned home to my original town band, 4th section and a youth band, which I now conduct. So hopefully my comments are thought out.
 
We as a brass band movement are our own worst enemies. The general attitude to competition is over heated, zealous and unhinged. If your band wins it is a triumph if it losses, many bandsmen very vocally, say they were robbed. It would be funny if it wasn't so ludicrous.
 
As a rounded musician you should not feel the need for contest recognition or validation of your abilities via contest results alone. While working on a test piece is very enjoyable and useful the "result" should be taken as it is, an opinion. This is not to demean adjudicator nor their abilities, just hopefully a voice of calm in what appears to be a angry storm. Work toward self improvement, not public contest recognition.
 
I fully understand the frustration at what seems unhelpful adjudicator remarks, but sadly the way contests are run this seems to  be the nature of the beast. I have learnt a lot from adjudicators remarks, but I have also scratched my head in wonder.
 
I formed a youth band 2 1/2 years ago and we have won the first two mainland competitions we entered (Wessex Training 2003/ Wessex Youth 2004) I went to great efforts to explain to the children that the main point of the day was our spending time together, working as a team and playing well. We also discussed courtesy to the result. How does it fair for the young people in our movement if they see adults ranting at what is viewed by the non brass banding world as merely an opinion. My colleagues in the IW Symphony Orchestra thinks its really odd they way brass bands carry on ! It demeans the movement for such a public opinion to be held. 
 
It should be noted that competitions are even harder for us to attend, as we are on the IOW and even thought we probably have to make double the time and financial commitment of our fellow bandsmen, I would like to think we have struck a happy medium with our attitude to the whole contesting scene.
 
Good luck to the bands who did make it through the madness to reach the finals.
 
Mary Teague BA (hons)
MD Vectis Youth Brass Band IOW

Sour grapes?

Why is it that after every contest there is a huge amount of letters starting with the phrase: "It's not sour grapes, but......"

You play in a band, you enter the contests, you take the results. It's not such a big deal, really.

To then slag off the 4BR team for giving an opinion, well that's rich. It wasn't that long ago when there were no retrospective comments on any of our contests. Remember?

Nigel Brinklow

Shocked with the result

I'm a player of Shiland Training Band and would like to say that with respect to the other bands in the section the test piece on Saturday wasn't easy!!! I my self was shocked with the result, but lets be honest a band that comes 1st by 3 points must of played well.

For other band persons to be unhappy with the result, must only mean that they are scared of the young players, which a amazing MD and band atmosphere are creating. It is quite clear that practise is the key!!!! Well done to all the players at Shirland.
 
And good luck at the National and World Finals!!!!
 
Andrew Street
Shirland Training Band

Why do we bother?

I sometimes ask myself why 4th section bands bother putting any effort into picking out the details of a piece of music. This isn't sour grapes, as my band came 10th on Saturday at the West of England Regionals, and after a disappointing performance didn't really deserve any better.

But for the last few years it feels as though adjudicators just want a band to "sound nice", and all the work that conductors put in to interpreting the music, and focusing on style, dynamics etc. means nothing. Could bands not be credited for taking risks, and attempting to play exactly what's on the score? Safe dynamics, or lack of style would be penalised in higher sections, so why not in the 4th section.

Mr Hurdley's comments that he is sending the best bands to Harrogate, seemingly irrespective of how well they actually played the test piece, is not going to encourage many 4th section players and conductors who have spend weeks getting their staccatos and accents right. Please take our section as seriously as others - we do.

Fiona Bell

Incompetent and immature?

I played in the second section on saturday at Torquay. I was indescribibly peived to listen to the results given by one Mr.Roe. What can only be described as incompitant and immature adjudicating was remarkable!

Do they know something we don't. The strange results carried forward into Sunday too, as Mr.Roe felt he needed to go against everyone else's true feelings in the auditorium. If you want to be different, do it elsewhere not in a competition as important to so many people as this. I'm also deeply ashamed of SWBBA for allowing this to go ahead, please in troduce multiple non-conferring adjudicators for heavens sake. The results cannot rest on one mans, and one very strange mans opinions we all put too much hard work into these contests to be deeply upset by such wrong doings.

On a lighter note, thanks to all the Championship Section bands who competed, I enjoyed listening to you all thoroughly.

Simon Badge

Let's work together...

Just like Nigel Tiller (4barsrest 17 March), when I wrote my comments on Monday about the West of England adjudicator of the 4th section, that was also my first time of writing to such a forum.
 
In writing again, I wish to make it clear that I send my very sincere best wishes to Verwood, Swindon and Drybrook on qualifying for the National Finals.
 
My own considered, yet emotional comments were concerning what Bryan Hurdley said from the stage in summing up his adjudication, and were not intended to distract from those bands' achievements.  I was sorry that these bands found their victories overshadowed by the reaction to the statements made by the adjudicator.  His comments concerning the music certainly did not follow what other adjudicators had been looking for and together with his other idiosyncratic statements caused me to go public.  But again I wish the winners well and remember nothing can take that away from you.
 
My own fight is not with you, it is with the brass band movement which is being fought over by various factions for their own ends and not for the people that make up the movement itself. And this is not the first time it has happened.
 
The BFBB, The Regional Committees, Bessons, and anybody else who is claiming a share, please, please, please stop fighting and WORK FOR US and not for your own personal or corporate egos and certainly not for profit from the labours of those who love to make brass band music.  We need one voice to speak to the world about our music making and then perhaps somebody will hear us.  But whoever leads us must listen to all the voices of those who make up the movement - the players; not the various committees and other self-styled quangos who have no real mandate to represent us. 

The time must surely be coming when action must be taken for the movement to survive.  So I believe the comments about the standard of halls, adjudicators, coffee facilities et al, which are being made, not just in the West of England, but also in the other regions, are signs that the grass roots have had enough.  Keep them coming.
 
Nigel Morgan

Thank you Bodmin

I would just like to thank all those at Bodmin Town Band for the welcome they gave me when I came out of retirement to help them in the regionals at torquay last sunday. It was nice to see that they have not given up and are trying to rebuild after a tough few years. I do not think that we disgraced ourselves and I beleive that the result was good enough to keep them in the Championship section which I know was the main objective!

They have a good man in the middle with Kevin McKenzie and I hope that anybody in the area who is not blowing at present or wants to make a 'come back' or is just not happy where they are at present then you could do far worst than join one of the friendliest bands in the southwest!

They may not be the band they were but with time and some new blood who knows? after all, rome was not built in a day and there have been many occasions in the past when other bands have gone from strength to strength on the back of other bands going to the wall or even disappearing.I hope this does not happen again and  I hope that the glory days soon return to a band that have all the right ideas about what banding is about and that is to have fun  aswell as put on a show when they need too, and beleive me they can certainly do that as they have showed  in the past with their visits to the whit walks etc.

Bugle is comming up and I am sure that anybody fancying a stop at Bodmin, then I would suggest they call in and have a blow and see what I mean about friendly welcomes.

Once again thanks for everything and I am sure that Mr Roe was pleased with the 3rd cornets on the day!

Jonathan Tregidga

Was it ever thus?

On reading remarks from players who feel justifiably aggrieved after poor adjudications I'm prompted to write in:

Was it ever thus? I'm afraid that as brass bandsmen and women we have always suffered at the hands of the subjectivity of the man in the box.

Yes, putting two or more people in the box may help, demanding that they be qualified may help as may all of the other suggestions people have had. But at the end of the day the points you get and the position you end up in is down to the subjective, personal opinion of one or two people who (depending on the contest) may or may not be able to see you. I'm going to be controversial and say that's the way I like it. Remember that ultimately it's music that's being judged, not just how high/loud/fast/quiet you can play.

Almost, by definition, the whole setup is unfair, but that's banding for you and for all of my hundreds of years banding I've never been to a contest where someone hasn't felt robbed or unfairly placed / commented upon. I know how demoralising contest outcomes can be on players - particularly youngsters, however I think the only way to deal with the situation is to adapt a pragmatic, fatalistic mind set. What is most important and, to me, more important than winning is that:

You play to the best of your ability (in tune, good sound, right notes in the right place, right note lengths, balance, articulation......) You play as part of a team - it's no good being the only player who is right. You should put your faith in the conductor and do what he or she has asked.

If you do these things and you're happy - what more can you do? The adjudicator may still put you last! For me it's all part and parcel of the contest day - and I get a buzz out of it. If you get what you think is a duff result go to the bar and moan, have a laugh at the ridiculousness of the situation but also try and retain a bit of pride and don't harbour too many sour grapes. Forget about it and then move on to the next challenge and play even better next time.

Your conductor may try to tailor the performance to the man in the box - but then it may sound contrived but it's probably best to do your homework on the adjudicator and try to avoid doing things that might inflame a negative response.

I'm sorry for all of the sop players who had negative comments at Torquay on Saturday - it really did sound as though he went for the jugular - I do empathise.

Sop sound again is a very subjective thing. For me a sop should always sound like a sop when playing a solo line (even in the low register), it shouldn't sound like a Bb cornet and it shouldn't sound like a trumpet - it should sound like a sop - 'cos that's what it is. It's very difficult to explain without recordings of Alan Wycherly, Pete Roberts, Brian Evans, etc at hand to demonstrate. Maybe that's what Saturday's adjudicator was trying to elude to but it sounds as though his delivery was less than tactful. To imply that there are inherent intonation problems with a soprano cornet that are impossible to overcome is nonsense. To imply that there are no 4th section sop players in the West of England who are capable of adjusting their intonation in order to play in tune is also nonsense and a bit insulting as I know there are some fine players out there.

By the way - I haven't just got on my soapbox because of my band's result on Sunday - I've been meaning to write in for a while.

That's enough now. I'd better get back to work before I'm sacked.

James Cooper, Bournemouth

Another relegation issue

As conductor of one of the bands in question I write in response to Mr. Glyn Davis뭩 letter regarding the Welsh Regional relegation issue.

Although I am in no position to offer an explanation as to why the Welsh Regional Council decided to relegate our band to the fourth section for 2005, what I can do is give him the reasons and describe the circumstances behind our decisions not to compete at the regionals for the last three years.

Within twelve months of winning the Welsh Regional, Second Section in 2001,our band suffered the loss of six very experienced players through work commitments, university students moving away from the area and one retirement. As we were unable to fill any of those vacancies with new experienced players, and saw no benefit in covering the cracks with temporarily borrowed players for the sake of one contest, it was decided that we could not defend our title genuinely in 2002.

Soon afterwards we lost another three senior players in similar circumstances, weakening our resources even further. It was then decided to tackle the problem from within and invite inexperienced youngsters from our own junior band to fill the empty chairs. By 2003 a band from an officially deprived area of North Wales could hardly afford the financial burden to spend hundreds of pounds on travelling to Swansea only to prove that the second section test piece was far too difficult for its new recruits.

Since 2001 I can now confirm that we have lost thirteen senior players, and proudly announce that every vacant position apart from one has been filled by a newly registered player from the junior band.

Although we did enter a few contests in the second section during this rebuilding process including the St.Helens Northern Open and Buxton Festival (much nearer than Swansea) it gives me no pleasure to announce that we came last on both those occasions, confirming that we were no longer a second section outfit.

When we decided to enter for this year뭩 regional contest I can assure Mr. Davis that we were as surprised as anyone that we had been relegated to the fourth section. We accepted the decision as we knew that another four youngsters would be able to make their contesting debut at Swansea.

If a loss of more than fifty per cent of experienced players is sufficient to prove that a band has had survival problems, only to overcome those problems with a successful youth policy, then I can assure Mr. Davis that we 멵an sleep at night? In 1997 we were a fourth section band, and within four years of very hard work we had won the third and second section regional title. Suddenly, less than three years on we became victims of our own success.

Our success at this year뭩 regional contest was achieved through 몁o hidden agenda?but very hard work, full committment and dedication by surviving members of a band that is determined to secure its future in the traditional and proper manner.

John Glyn Jones

The punishment goes on...

The punishment of the West of England contest goes on and on. It's starting to feel like a bad dream and soon I will wake up on the morning of the contest again and all will go well.

I'm not saying that we will necessarily do any better, but that the post contest comments from all will be fair, worthwhile and helpful to the future of our band and the brass band world.

Unfortunately the words of Mr Hurdley were less than so and your 'retrospective' was much the same.

How is it helpful to write "if you can't stand the heat....well you know the rest"? We have spent the past week convincing some members of our band to carry on competing and in fact to carry on playing as the comments from Mr Hurdley were so bizarre and hurtful to some. Do you think that we should not contest next year and allow the contests to fall away even more?  I feel that we should make our feelings known so that improvements can be made rather than just going along with it each year or dropping out altogether. In fact, I would urge all bands - winners and losers - to write to the area associations with their views otherwise nothing will ever change.

If you have really read the 'murmurs' then you will realise that the discontent isn't with the placings but with the ridiculous comments that the adjudicator came out with post the contest. It seems that a better phrase to use would
be "If you weren't there then you shouldn't comment."

You also refer to the poor acoustics in the hall and then say that it is a good venue. It's clearly not. The Fourth Section bands are made up of the greatest range of players in terms of ability. Therefore, giving us a poor hall to play in where we need to adjust so dramatically to get any decent detail sounding does not make sense as we do not necessarily have the players to do it. We should be given the most accommodating hall, not the worst. Our conductor did go in to the hall beforehand and listen to some bands to grade the acoustic and we tried our best to adjust accordingly but it still wasn't enough. I would like to see a top section band go in to that hall and give a performance that sounds good to an adjudicator - I bet they wouldn't be able to do it either. I am sure that they would not perform a contest on such a small stage either
where you cannot sit the band in regular formation as it is not wide enough!

I think that we (the brass band world) should have learnt from this contest that the venue of this contest needs to be changed. The most important part - the halls- are not suitable. Secondly, the adjudicators need to be given a contract that states some basic rules (e.g. follow tempos, articulation etc. where written on the score), that the adjudicators are aware of the rules (you are allowed to switch parts! so whether you do or not should not be reflected in your mark or comments), and that perhaps this is the time to make a national decision to have 2 adjudicators for each area. The results are too important. Thirdly, perhaps an evaluation form should be devised and sent out to every competing band each year so that a record of the success of each contest can be kept and evaluated.

Helen

PS How can you make us wait this long for such a short retrospective?

Struggling on despite the 'Man Flu'

Despite suffering from 'Man Flu', I have somehow found the strength to contact 4barsrest.
 
I believe I caught this from drinking from a damp glass, celebrating our stunning win in the Championship Section at Torquay last Sunday.
 
Well, I thought the 'retrospective' would be interesting.  I was looking forward to reading that we should have come 9th, and that the lovely band in green and red were robbed yet again!  But, alas, you hadn't sent anyone to give a band by band analysis of the section.  A pity, Peter Wise (with full score) must have listened to each band and he knows his onions.
 
We at Bournemouth are absolutely delighted to be going to the Albert Hall in October.  It's nice when you don't leave your best performance in the band room for a change. 
 
Considering our Solo Euph player (Sarah) came in with less than a week's notice, doing a superb job (bearing in mind that she hadn't played in yonks), and Adrian, our 2nd Cornet player fell ill that morning; the result was beyond our wildest dreams.
 
I must pay tribute to Nigel Taken who worked so hard to get the band into shape. We had total confidence in him.
 
We hope he will be 'Taken' us at the Albert Hall!
 
Steve Rowland

Not even photos!

Did Aldbourne supply their own photo's to the retro of the West of England (what retro there was)? Even when the North retro was delayed, at least there were photo's from each section. Your retro's have been excellent from the regions so far, but the West, for which I was not able to attend (Wife and kids did not allow it!), has been the worst so far. Perhaps Mr Fox may want to lose this retro 30000 feet above the earth along with the other one he has already lost!
 
Andrew Brooks

Straw chewing yokels

Thank-you for insulting the West of England by not giving it the coverage it deserved. I'm sure we are regarded as just a bunch of straw chewing yokels. I would be interested to read your criteria of which regions you decide to fully cover, however I'm sure you would be far to busy to bother.
 
Yours feeling short-changed.
 
Keith Lewis [on behalf of the West of England Brass Band Players]

Expressing my disgust!

I wish to express my extreme disgust that once again the Scottish Retrospective is the the last to air. I know that in the media Scotland is ignored but does the "Unofficial" brass band website have to be governed by the same? As an avid reader of your website I must say I am extremely disappointed!

Mark Haldane

4BR comment:
The above comments are just a small percentage of the 100s we received with regards to the West of England retrospective and the delay of Scotlands.

While we freely admit that the delay of the Scottish was unacceptable and the thoroughness of the West of England was not what you probably deserve or expect, we are extremely disappointed by the attitude of many who wrote to us to express their thoughts.

While many were humourous are thoughtful,  many of those from bandsmen in the West of England were disrespectful, colourful, personal and even in some cases racist towards us as a Welsh based business.

While we understand that this is not the general view of those who make up the West of England region, we were disturbed that so many could put such comments in an email.

We would like to remind all readers that 4barsrest.com is committed to providing the very best coverage to all areas of the UK and overseas where and when it is possible We are though heavily reliable on individuals who give up the time and efforts to report on events on behalf of 4barsrest.

While we are dissapointed with our own performance in some cases during the last few weeks, it should also be noted that 4barsrest is a FREE website for individuals around the world to enjoy. 

The fact that many felt so passionate to convey their strongs feeling has been taken as a huge compliment to the success and worthiness of the site and its content.

What's all the fuss about?

Having read the comments regarding the 4th section results and adjudication I ask myself the question what is all the fuss about. All band people know on the day it is one mans preference to who wins, if you know your band has played well to the best of its ability and pleased your conductor then you can do no more, it is then in the lap of the gods.

To listen alone to twenty bands is a huge task and the poor old adjudicator is not going to please everyone, and in my humble experience they usually get it right.Having played under and worked with Bryan Hurdley I have always found him fair, very encouraging and totally professional plus his credentials are second to none. His comments to me seem more constructive rather than destructive, plus they should inspire 4th section bands to better things, so please lets not be so keen to knock the man in the box and misinterpret what was really meant, take the positives from it and work harder next year.
 
Jon Griffin. Bristol

American adjudication

I've just read the artical about American adjudication by Stephen Roberts, and I must say I agree with 90% of their methods.

Having fallen foul of dreadful British style adjudication (most recently with Mr. Roe at the Midlands regionals) the topic of conversation in my band has been how to make the process fairer. Recording was one of the options (after all it is 2005!) and two seperate adjudicators was another, each awarding their points seperatly and an average taken to find the winner. The CD's made of each band could be referred to by the adjudicators at the end of the contest to remind them of the early performances, perhaps then bands with an early draw would stand an equal chance of a fair result. As things stand, there are a lot of disapointed and angry bandsmen (and conductors) following the announcement of often flawed and inconsistant results.
 
Ian Williams

4BR comment:
To read the Stephen Roberts article on adjudicating in the US recently, go to:
http://www.4barsrest.com/articles/2005/art445a.asp

A new series of articles on the American style of adjudication by Dallas Neirmeyer will be available in the coming weeks.

Barbershop banding

Four years ago I joined a Barbershop Chorus.  The attitude to their hobby is similar to banding 40 years ago before money became the driving force of many players.  I have now attended several "conventions" where many choruses compete and have been stunned by their totally different approach to judging and competing. 
 
The draw is made about a month before convention and publicised on the association website.  Each chorus receives a detailled order of performance along with a time to report at the venue and the name of the steward who will be their point of contact until they have finished their performance!  The warm up and rehearsal rooms are pre allocated within the venue itself.
 
The judging programme is aimed at achieving  a consistent marking level for all judges using the normal criteria tuning, interpretation, performance quality, accuracy etc.  Judges have regular meetings to reach a commonality of approach to marking and by and large they achieve it.  The system started in USA and has been used for over 40 years I am informed.  Judges from USA come here to judge and vice versa also men and women compete separately but share judges.
 
Is it too much too ask for our adjudicators to find common ground on the basics of judging?  I have lost count of how many times I have played at contests and been placed by a one judge and slated by another a few weeks later on the same testpiece.  Before you comment recordings were made of each performance.
 
I feel sure that many contest organisers and bandsmen and women would appreciate this common ground.  This movement of ours exists because of the dedication and enthusiasm of players and supporters.  Contests are seen as a bench mark of improvement they should not be lowered to fit the individual ego trip of one adjudicator on one day.  Lets drag our movement forward and pick the good points from other music making organisations.  Music is music interpretation is in the ear of the listener.  I hope this e-mail provokes reasoned  discussion.

Mike Hughes

Sticking to its guns

When the Yorkshire area stated it was going to use two adjudicators for each section at this years area contest there was an outcry from the other areas saying Yorkshire was wrong. It would appear with hind sight that the Yorkshire area committee got it right, as we now see all the adverse criticism against the use of one adjudicator in the recent areas. Well done to the Yorkshire committee for sticking to its guns, keep up the good work.

John Clay

Brassed off bouncers

I enjoyed reading your retrospective for the North West and in particular your comments regarding the Championship Section test piece Rienzi, along with your analogies with the film Brassed Off. Very good.

I entered the Opera House on a number of occasions to listen to the bands. On one occasion I was horrified to see one group of ladies (I took them to be followers of the playing band) bouncing about in their seats to the Wagner toe-tapper. Had the ladies died their hair blue or something, I would have taken it as a replica scene from Brassed Off in the Albert Hall.

I really did want to concentrate on the performance on stage rather than that in the audience seats.

Perhaps I was being too staid in my contest etiquette?

Al Roland

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