Comments ~ 2004: August

Nice to be updated; Beggers and Choosers; A Swiss Question and more as we come to the end of August.

Nice to be updated!

After having once bemoaned the irregularity and the long time it used to take to update them, how refreshing to see that the 'comments' section gets updated on such a frequent basis now! Nice one 4br and thank you! (Now waits while it takes over month to get this comment on the website.. just joking! )

Dave Payn
Fulham Brass Band

4BR Reply:
Perhaps it's because of the sad lonely lives we lead in the wee dark hours of the night...

A Swiss question...

I have just a little question: amongst the following brass bands:

Black Dyke; Grimethorpe; Brighouse; Fairey; Fodens; Cory

Do you already know who will participe to the masters 2005 or not?  I want to organize something with a top band on the 27th of May 2005 in Switzerland so I have to know that!

Many thanks and kind regards

Daniel Zumbrunnen
Suisse

Beggers, Choosers and Dancing in the Park

To answer Neil's mail,..... I believe the only copy of this piece on CD is on Master Brass Vol 6,.... as my own band Drogheda Brass are doing this piece in Belfast in October for the championships up there and it's the only copy we can find (it's not the best copy/performance to go by),.. but there again beggars can't be choosers, or never look a gift horse in the mouth.

Gareth McDonnell

According to their website Master Brass Vol 6 is still available from the Midland CD Club :
http://www.midland-cd-club.co.uk/cgi-bin/item-mid.pl?id=bb0108&lang=en

Paypal pleasures

Thank you 4bars rest for integrating Paypal into your shopping area. Although I don't mind using my credit card to shop over the internet if I can use another method where I don't need to put it my details everytime - and saves me time - I will.

Oh yes - thanks for the quick delivery of the DVD and CDs.

William Marsters
New York, US

What about US?

I like reading about the extra information you have recently printed on the Australian band scene, but what about us across the pond? How about priniting more information on banding in the States? Aren't we worthy?

John Peterson, Illinois

4BR reply:
Of course you are worthy but it's up to the US bands to send us the information.  I'm afraid the carrier pigeons don't come to our little Welsh village...

To show our committment to global banding though - look out for us at the forthcoming US Open Championships in Chicago in November.

Your having a laugh!

How it made me laugh to read comments making out your biased to Welsh banding and in particular BAYV. If perhaps you were overly pushing your allegiance to your own band then I myself may feel the need to point this out. In contrary, I admire you the way you always understate everything regarding the Tredegar band.

What's the matter with you people! This is the first time ever we've had a medium that's actually taking us forward, portraying us in a modern way and actually perpared to positively criticise our movement in a thoughtful and educated way.

Simon Hughes, Wiltshire

Here's one who agrees with Mr Ashworth
 
I agree whole-heartedly with your suggestions David, especially:
1. Having to attend venues at ridiculous times for draws. 
2. More than one adjudicator with NO CONTACT.   At the last area contest there were 2 adjudicators in the same 'box' who provided my band  with almost opposite comments but (surprise, surprise) the same points awarded by both ... what a farce!

The big danger is that some younger players are asking us older players 'given the hard (but enjoyable) work preparing contest music, middle-of-the-night start and farcical results ... what's the point in contesting?'    I have enjoyed contesting for many years, but am now finding it more difficult to answer the question encouragingly and optimistically.
 
Keep on lobbying on behalf of the hundreds of players, like myself, who are less vocal but are becoming, unfortunately, more cynical.   

Jack Leitch

Dancing in the Park

I am a Euphonium player with a local brass band who have been set Dancing in the Park by Peter Graham as the test piece in an forthcoming contest.  I have been trying to locate a CD with this piece on it but have had no luck, except for the discontinued Master Brass Vol 6 CD.  Can you advise of any other CD which may have this particular test piece on it.

Neil Stephenson

4BR Reply:
If anyone can help, let us know

Australia not in disarray!

Australia is certainly not in disarray as reported in your recent news article from Peter (Monkey)Younghusband and 'Australian Brass'.

Delegates from WBBC-Kerkrade travelled to Australia last year and met with members of the National Band Council of Australia with a proposal to send a composite band from Australia to the World Brass Band Championships to be held in Kerkrade in 2005.

Earlier this year, a number of processes were put in place including, but not limited to; advertising for interested participants.  One of the other responsibilities of the NBCA process was to appoint a Musical Director and this was promulgated in July.  I personally have had total belief in this process from the outset. The composition of the playing members for the band is currently being dealt with, by the people who have been given the responsibility to do so.

It must be noted that although Australian Brass has been around since 1995, it has not gathered since it's 2001 season, when it performed at the Gala Concert at the National Brass Band Championships in Brisbane.  It could be said that Australian Brass has been "in recess".

In any case,  it is envisaged that many past members of Australian Brass will occupy some of the positions in the 2005 National Band of Australia. We, as a banding nation, are looking forward to participating meaningfully in these championships.  This is an exciting project for us, one that has not been attempted since early last century, when the Commonwealth of Australia Band toured and competed successfully in the UK. Bring on Kerkrade 2005!

Mark Ford

Lacking in knowledge - a bass player writes

Your reply to the complaints made regarding your choice of principal players for notes to help you at Harrogate were to say the least lacking in knowledge of the construction of a brass band. To totally disregard the bass section as Tom Dick or Harry is unforgivable. To assume the presence of a bass section is bad enough but to disregard the foundation stone of all brass bands shows a need for retraining.

P Marklew
BBb Bass player

4BR Newsbar

Great idea, I know this will be a great addition to our news page - thanks 4barsrest.

Aidan Simpson

4BR Reply:
If you want the 4BR newsbar on your bands homepage, then log into the news page on the site and follow the instructions. 

Shock, Horror - Mr Ashworth is wrong

As an old friend of Mr Ashworth I respect most of what he says, but I must disagree with one point regarding the future of the area championships.
 
In my opinion they should be scrapped altogether!  (shock, horror, sorry Dave) but replaced with "key" contests throughout the year culminating with the top placed bands from each region going to London (or wherever) to play off for the National title. This would actually do more good inasmuch as we are currently experiencing an apathetic approach to our local contests and attendances are falling rapidly.
 
If our promotion/relegation depended on turning out at 3, 4 or 5 contests then surely our local organisers would benefit from increased attendance?  The bands would also benefit from doing more contesting during the year rather than relying on the "one" area contest, which some bands only attend.
 
And what about adjudicators? By spreading the burden of responsibility over the season they would be relieved of the task of deciding a bands future based on a single contest, and any instances of inappropriate behaviour would be reduced because more adjudicators would be involved at more contests.
 
It would also put our fate back into the hands of the bandsmen/women themselves, removing it from the likes of B&H, Kapitol & the FBB who at the moment seem to hold the monopoly on our destiny.
 
The end result would be (a) Better attendances at local contests.  (b) Restore faith in the system of promotion/relegation. (c) Insure better respect for adjudicators AFTER a result. Perhaps the contest controllers could take this suggestion on board also?
 
Jim Owen
Eatons Farnworth & Walkden Band

Send the best not the rest

I concur with the comments of Robert Kavanagh re ensuring that Australia presents its best team in Kerkrade and that a National Band would fall short of our best team.  That said, if Robert thinks that the Australian bands he mentioned (Hawthorn, Warath, Brisbane Excelsior, Kew or K&N) are able to compete at the same level as Cory, then he only needs to visit New Zealand to get a real taste of how big the divide is between Australia and Britain.
 
If Australia is to represented in Kerkrade, then I suggest that we follow the formula adopted in the USA, ie the winner of the National Championship be invited as the representative of that country.  Surely our best team is the team that produces the best result in Australia?
 
Chris Bowman
Adelaide

Pathetic dismissals

Why do bands "dismiss" good players in order to pacify others.  I have witnessed the "outings" of players, conductors & committee members because they have an opinion.  In my past experience I have witnessed the pathetic treatment of individuals.

No one is bigger than a band, and if that is the case you would be better off out of it. It is not an arena to demand, banding has always been for enjoyment and pleasure and should be so.

Louise Evans

A Stomper speaks!

Quite correct Butlins don`t book the bavarian stompers and Pontins do - I should know I`m the bandleader! Good luck to all brassband muso`s out there and see you at Prestatyn in Oct. Regards obergruppenfuhrer stomper - check out our website www.bavarianstompers.com

Frank Chislett

The need for change - our top judge replies

I really feel that I must reply  to David Ashworth  (soapbox opinions No.1) where in his first paragraph he says, and I quote "including comments made in David Read's new book regarding the necessity of change or rather his reluctance to change".

I hope that  he has read my book "Beyond the Box" and not just the review in the "British Bandsman" because if he has, he must have read that I am all for change if I believe that it will improve matters. I do not believe in change for changes sake (nor does Peter Roberts apparently) and also I do not believe in change when I think it will be harmful, which is totally different to his interpretation of my view.

Some people seem to think that the word change is a euphemism  for better but this is not  so. As far as brass bands  are concerned did the change in Instrumental music teaching in schools mean things got better? Less Tenor Horns, Baritones, Euphoniums and Tubas being taught, this is a fact!

Did the change to the landscapes of South Yorkshire, the North East and Wales when Mrs. Thatcher decimated the Coal industry, causing the loss of so many Colliery  bands  mean things got better?  Again, as far as brass bands are concerned, when the BBC changed its attitude  by reducing us to one programme a week on national radio, did this make things better?

No, the change we  should be making  is a  concentration of all our efforts to attract more people into the playing of brass instruments. I am delighted to read recently that Professor Gregson has agreed to chair a forum in Manchester to this end. Thank goodness we  are at last beginning to wake up!

The regeneration of brass banding will not be brought about by the advocacy of change to adjudicating systems, and the established structures of competition,which is only akin to the  stewards shuffling the deck chairs around on the Titanic!

It will be brought about by the efforts of  people like Ian Kennedy of Askern who when the Colliery closed and  found the band collapsing around him defied CISWO (who wanted the instruments back) and refused to be beaten. With these instruments Ian  began teaching children (including his own) alongside some of the past members who came back to help. A band that many thought had died and in my book I pronounced as dead, is now in a position to play at Church Fetes and similar functions and is well on on the road to recovery.

My views are covered in detail in the book "Beyond the Box" and  I am quite prepared for people to disagree but I do not wish them to be misrepresented.

David Read ( The adjudicator) 

The best of Oz?

The only way for Australia to do well at the innaugural World Championships is to have the best possible band in Australia to attend.
 
Whilst I think the concept of a National Band of Australia or Australian Brass is excellent, they are not the types of ensembles we want competing with the likes of Buy As You View. 
 
In my opinion, the two main ingredients of a top class brass band are sound and balance - and these attributes can only be properly developed over a long period of time with absolute team players. 
 
Australian Brass, for instance, is not an established and steady team.  It is a great concept and I will always be a supporter, except when it comes to representing Australia against world class brass bands. 
 
What do the Hawthorn, Waratah, Brisbane Excelsior, Kew and K&N bands have that a national outfit would lack?  Well, for starters they are already rehearsing together in the one place and more than once a week;  Their players have an undertanding of each other that can only be built up over long periods of time;  They have heritage and know, as an ensemble, what it is to compete as one solid team against the very best;  They have a sound that has developed and matured - and is distinctive. 
 
Let's not stuff this up.  This is our opportunity to showcase THE BEST BAND IN AUSTRALIA against a world class field.  Having a scratch band with the best players in Australia will just not do.
 
Robert Kavanagh
Adelaide

Ranking the euphs?

Is there a web site which ranks living euphonium players? I also think that if you are going to rank the great euphonium players as you have done that you should specify that you ate talking about British artists. If you are claiming that the ten you list are really the ten greatest of all time, where would you place Simone Mantia?

John Youff

4BR Reply:
We have thought of introducing a ranking system for players from soprano down to Bb bass, but we think it would be impossible as it would be too subjective. Still there is always our "Top 10" series which we have run, and which will be making a reappearance again in the near future.

Maybe a bad workman?

I was interested to read the article on Roger Webster's Eco-Lube, in which Mr Webster states that "I am very fussy and demanding as a customer and wouldn't recommend it unless I could do so with total confidence…I can!"
 
I think the proof may have to be in the pudding as for sometime now, Mr Webster has been recommending with total confidence the many sub-standard Besson Prestige cornets to come out of the Besson factory....
 
However, it does prove what a fantastic player he is if he can make the cornets seem remotely playable before they are distributed to the paying customers.
 
But maybe I'm just a bad workman...
 
Ian Wilson

Look out for the Kiwis

I would wholeheartedly support the Dalewool band. I was the chief adjudicator last year when they won. They are a first class outfit and will be a refreshing addition to the contest when they participate. Any gig that can be arranged for them would be an excellent showcase.

Kind regards,

Barrie Gott

Agreeing with Pete

Just to agree with Peter Roberts on one or two things.

Now I don't know the in's and out's of the English, or European banding administration but I know what we don't need is more middle men or more politicians.  We have enough.  It is what makes people leave banding and not come back.  It puts people off in the first place. It's responsible for bands folding and upsets being caused in the band room and on the contest stage. It is, as simple as that, as I, and many others I'm sure, have first hand experience of.

We have enough admin staff and at times to much.  The only positive thing I'd say about this situation is that Mr Oates is actually a player which makes a nice change from administors and officials having authority over something they have no, or very little experience of. That's my opinion anyway.

By the way, great site.

Gareth Westwood

Prattling on…

Just like to congratulate Iwan Fox on his excellent, and witty CD reviews of Pratty Flowers by the Hepworth Persimmon Homes Band and Building with Brass by Tredegar Town. 

Having read, and then purchased many a CD from 4BR, I've got to admit he is usually spot on about the content on the releases he covers and isn't afraid to tell us what he thinks is good, bad and plain awful - especially as in one of these cases, I understand he even played on one of the releases.

I don't agree with him all the time (and the other excellent reviewers on 4BR) but it is one of the main reasons why 4BR leads the way. Well done lads!

John Grant

4BR Reply:
Thanks John. Nice to see we are pleasing at least one person!

The Lincoln Memorial

Whilst I agree with Mr Lincoln that programme listings are a failing in certain circumstances I find his argument concerning the fault being that of the bands a little unfair.

It is not the fault of the top name bands if those who attend the concerts automatically assume that the programme is going to be traditional. I am not intending this as a poke at Mr Lincoln or the audiences who turn up to concerts, their attendance is what keeps brass banding alive. I have played in many concerts that have advertised some of the programme on the posters and I have played in some concerts where little, if any, information is given. Both audiences enjoyed the programme in each case and it is always a pleasure to hear a full house roaring to the melody of the Floral Dance.

However, looking at this from a neutral perspective, if B+R are playing in a concert, what is the probability that people will go to the concert to hear the Floral Dance band ? This surel y is a problem of historical association, the band might have done well from its success in the charts but does that mean that the band should forever be associated with one piece or one style of playing. If we continue to play the same structured programme that everyone expects then does that not mean that it moves further along the route leading to banding becoming even more of a Museum Culture. I accept, however, that concerts of 'far out music' would not be palatable to all audiences or even the majority of audiences but concert programmes are often predictably structured and as such encourage audiences to assume that they will always be the same. Regarding the comment, "...should rely on their reputation and expect people to attend 'a concert by Brighouse & Rastrick' on the basis that just because its 'Brighouse' therefore it must be good whatever they play."

A normal programme may not include pieces that are all good to play (for performers) or good to listen (for audiences). As such, a programme attempts to cater for all tastes. Strange as it may seem, many people complain that they don't hear enough serious music when a "named" band plays in their locale.

As for the reference to the 19th century. Although I am a firm believer in change or modernising there are many lessons to be learnt from that era, such as programmes or poster including aspects or the full programme and also, correct me if I am wrong, selections of music that often lasted for a considerable length, I heard that a few were 30 mins long. But alas, I'm sure there would be an outcry today if a band played an extended movement of Mahler or Stravinsky for the majority of one half! Would audiences complain about bands such as YBS, B+R etc playing a concert consisting of a number of large scale pieces by Eric Ball and Gilbert Vinter. Both of whom exemplify nice "tuneful" music. They probably would, but it would be interesting to see what excuses they would use since they could not use the normal argument of, "it didn't have a tune in it!" or "I couldn't remember a single tune after I left the hall!". I admit that, for most, concerts are contexts which are based for enter tainment and not education, but if you hear a new piece of original music in a traditional programme, it is that piece (barring the soloists!) that is most talked about, as I witnessed first hand in a massed bands concert where we played lollipops and Journey into Freedom in the middle.

At the end of the day I suppose it's a case of each to their own. One person's favourite drink is another person's poison! But bands of today cannot be blamed for the assumptions of audiences that expect a certain programme because that's what the band in question or bands in general have always played!
People have said that my tone is often provocative, even when I don't mean it, so I apologise if I have offended either Mr Lincoln or any viewers of these comments.

Richard Jones
The opinions that are expressed in this major rant(!!) are not those of the band which I represent. (B+R)

Just a small point!

Just a small point! I am really used to people mis-spelling my name, but they usually stick to the same mis-spelling all the time.

Just for the record it's FENSOM, not Fenson.
Keep up the good work!

Paul Fensom

4BR Reply:
Sorry Pual - oops! Paul. In the best traditions of being old Guardian readers will will ensure our mistakes are kept to a minimum in future.

Sons of the Brave - the outcome                                       

My research project has had quite a boost, thanks to 4bars' well kept archives. A query ref the 1923 championships programme proved to be an easy task. Thanks very much.

Peter Goble
Researching The Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea.& DYRMS Dover

And what about Groundforce?

Tell him to try asking Nick Childs and Black Dyke, as surely they may be able to help out? 

Ian Perks

In reply to the query about the Groundforce music, you can let Jim Owens know that I have this CD and will gladly "help" him out in any way I can.

Gareth McDonnell
Drogheda Band

What is Peter Roberts doing?

Just a couple of points regarding Peter Roberts comments: Yes there is need for an English organisation to have a representitive place at the European championchips - why do you ask Mr. Roberts?

Well Wales and Scotland have there own, so wouldn't you like to have a title such as "Champions of England",  so you could represent your country? Also when you say, "Why are the Welsh so interested in the English having there own competition" -  Who do you mean? The banding press?

Welsh bandspeople (who there are many in English bands - even in your own YBS Band if I am not mistaken), Welsh supporters of the YBS Band who come your concerts and buy your CD's? I was always taught don't bite the hand that feeds you?

Well done to Simon Oates and the EFBB. Along with Messrs Biggs and Franklin the organisers of the Masters it's good to see English banding in the forefront of progressive banding, which is promoting the youth of England and Britain - what are you doing Peter?

Denis Wright

Where are the Sons of the Brave?

I am researching the Royal Military Asylum, Chelsea covering the years 1803-1880.  Their Regimental march "Sons of the Brave' written by Bidgood in 1898, was most probably inspired by the Phillip R Morris Painting" Sons of the Brave", completed by and exhibited at the 1880 Royal Academy Sumer exhibition
 
This painting a magnificent 9 feet by six portrait of the boys band marching from the main entrance belongs to the City of Leed's Art Gallery, and it hangs at the Duke of York's School, Dover.  There is one other painting, a landscape 6ft x 2ft, also hanging at the Duke of York's School Dover. It is also rumoured that there is a third painting called Sons of the Brave, by Phillip R Morris, as yet I have to discover just where.
 
This trio of , what I consider the first example of a full military band playing and in motion, is I believe the catalyst that set Bidgood on his quest to compose 'Sons of the Brave' and  for Kenneth J Alford  to comment when asked which is the best march, "The best is The Stars and Stripes, then Sons of the Brave,........
 
I recently worked in conjunction with Jan VanDinteren, a noted Dutch writer who completed  a life and works history of Thomas Bidgood, published in 2003. I am currently working with A.W Cockerill, a well known military historian and author. Two of his books "Sons of the Brave" and the "The Charity of Mars" relating to Military Schools have be published, other historical articles include, Bidgood's connection with the Royal Military Asylum, his works, his life, and unfortunately his sad death. I am currently researching details and facts for his next project.
 
I note on your web site, the item about the Brass Band Competition of 1923, that the catalogue for this event included a reference to The Duke of York's School, the 'Sons of the Brave' march by Bidgood and also the famous painting used to illustrate the programme, 'Sons of the Brave', by Phillip R Morris.

Is there any possibility of a photo copy of this pamphlet? any parts use for subsequent publication will be  forwarded to you for vetting before any publication. Full credit will be given for the help you have provided. All historical ephemera will be passed on to the Duke of York's Royal Military School, Museum, at Dover.
 
Your help would be appreciated

Peter Goble

4BR Reply:
Glad to be of help Peter. A copy of the picture was in fact printed in the 1923 programme for the National Championships of Great Britain, which were held at Crystal Palace on September 29th 1923, and which were won by Luton Red Cross conducted by William Halliwell.

We have sent you a J-peg of the picture of the programme, and we hope it is of some help to you. The picture was printed in the programme under the title "Sons of the Brave" and was published by permission of Photochrom Co Ltd, of London and Tunbridge Wells.

And what about proper programme listings?

I write following Tim Wheeler's comment headed 'Stay at Home'. I have always felt that one 'failing' of brass band concerts is the lack of information provided to the potential concert attendee as to what music they might expect to hear. Our orchestral colleagues invariably publish the whole programme so an individual can decide whether or not its music they like and want to hear. Whilst I appreciate this is not feasible for a concert with perhaps 12/14  items there is no reason why the programme cannot mention 3 or 4 pieces by name and give a flavour of what the rest of the programme might contain - music by Bernstein, music from the shows, classical extracts, a concert of recent championship section test pieces (heaven forbid) or whatever.

It isn't acceptable that bands of the ilk of Brighouse & Rastrick (and I only mention them as they are cited in Tim's article) should rely on their reputation and expect people to attend 'a concert by Brighouse & Rastrick'  on the basis that just because its 'Brighouse' therefore it must be good whatever they play. Brass band audiences are becoming more and more discernable and it is incumbent upon bands to play music that is audience friendly if you're not going to tell them in advance what you're going to play. This applies to playing in the park as well as in the concert hall.

As Tim quite rightly says this is the 21st century so come on brass bands, come out of the 19th century, tell the concert-goer what they are going to hear and let them decide in advance whether or not they wish to attend.

Roger Lincoln

Bands on the tele - not just a childhood treat!!

It was great to see the televised performances of the Welsh bands at the Welsh National Eisteddfod last weekend. It took me back to my childhood asking my Mum & Dad if could I stay up late to watch the highlights and the winning performance of the Granada Band of the Year and also the BBC2 Band Competition held on a Friday night in the early eighties.

Its a great pity that its not possible to televise  more of the major entertainment competitions, it may get people more involved in the brass band movement. As a conductor of a Welsh band myself, it would have been nice to take part in what is a traditional Welsh Festival but unfortunately the distance and cost from North to South makes it impractical for a fourth section band. It takes a year of fundrasing to attend the Regionals in Swansea.

Having said that, the Eisteddfod alternates between North and South every year so in 2005 it shall be up here in the North and we will be able to enter. Thanks for promoting the competition, I know many people watched and enjoyed the performances over the two days, the only down side to it all was I never got much work done in the garden, as it was one of the few nice weekends we have had all summer!

Dave Davies
Holywell Band

End this Civil War

May I suggest that we put an end to the American Civil War retoric. Perhaps you would find your way to post the NABBA contest review ( By the way, it was done by a British native and former member of the LSO) and results in you coments area. ( Specifally pages 21 and 22)
 
Robert Henderson  
Detroit Michigan , USA

4BR Reply:
Due to copyright we can't do this, but we would encourage ourreaders to look at the website of the North American Brass Band Association at www.nabba.org and also try and get a copy of the magazine "The Brass Band Bridge".

Why did the soprano leave the band? 
Can anyone tell me why the talented soprano cornet player Michelle Ibbotson has suddenly left Black Dyke please?

Denise Roscoe

4BR Reply:
We would direct you to our recent news article on the subject - nothing more, nothing less.

Ground Force please!

Is there anyone out there who can help me find (to buy) a CD of Black Dyke playing the "Ground Force"  music.  I have tried to get it through the Dyke website but I am told it is out of print. 
 
Jim Owen
Eatons Farnworth & Walkden Band

4BR Reply:
If anyone can help, please let us know.

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